Genders

[ISSsloth]

I completely understand this, but in some heart events where the player is not there, people refer to them as ''she'', ''her'', 'he', 'him', etc. Also, in marriage ceremonies, Mayor Lewis pronounces you husband and husband, wife and wife, or husband and wife. And when Haley first meets you, she says “Oh... you're that new farmer [boy/girl], aren't you?'' This makes pronouns a bit more of an issue. :)

For the marriage ceremony I feel that spouse would work. (I've seen it so many times on the wiki that this game is actually the first thing I think of when I hear the word spouse.)

Haley could just say, "Oh... you're that new farmer, aren't you?"

 

[imnvs]

You are quite quick to insinuate for a supposedly so open-minded person.

Stop it. You are arguing about this, telling us we have no solutions to this gender neutral language problem. That tells everyone that you don't know the solution, and you're arguing that we not do it as a result, which means you don't want to find the solution. I'm not assuming anything. I'm not insinuating anything that isn't plain on the face of it to everyone reading here.

I don't think you speak German, Russian or Polish, do you? As I said grammatical-neutrum may sound like a "material" thing (in contrast to a "living" person). And that's just for these languages. In other languages it can be different again.
Also "Mr." and "Mrs."/"Miss" are similar enough to have also similar "Mx." for LGBTQ+ . But such similarities are not given in other languages that easy. That's all I have said!

And see, here you are, explaining how we can't possibly come up with anything like Mx in another language. And here I am telling you, again, that people speaking those languages are non-binary... and all we have to do is ask. Don't tell me we don't have the words to do what is being asked. Words are made up. Someone will make up more.

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

The best solution going forward would be create a new game with this function. I mean if you put it in from the start it's less divisive than adding post release. Post release either as regional or just the new version causes arguement. It's like Conan exiles which had released without full nudity but made a patch for the European users to get the full models. This creates friction between fans and devs.

You might feel that that was off topic but I want to address the root issue. It's called censorship. Alot of users are trying to say not adding a gender neutral pronoun is censorship but frankly it's not. It's a new level of social dynamics that has occured since the game released. Heck I don't remember hearing people requesting latinx (which is new enough to fail spell check) when I first started playing. So please understand nobody is being censored here and this topic should not harm anyone's feelings one way or another.

People just want to be represented in a way that is comfortable for themselves. If the dev can make versions for open-minded regions that would be super. I just dont see a way to do it that won't have an internet blow up of negativity.

 

[imnvs]

I never said something about "impossible" than just giving some thoughts to consider.

You grasp for every reason you can find to say why this game should not have this feature. Every time we give an option for how to get around one of your contentions, you move the goalposts or set up a whole new goal, and you do it every time this topic is brought up.

Instead of doing that, why not tell us what YOU think about the idea. Don't tell us how someone else will react, especially some imaginary "other". Don't give us obstacles we can easily surmount or bypass to implementation. I have an idea, too: the best way to start. That's with you telling us, simply and plainly... if an option was made for other players to play non-binary but if that option wasn't selected the game wouldn't change for you in any way, shape or form, would YOU still play the game? Tell us what you think. Tell us how you would react.

 

[Yuni Cosmo]

I haven't said something different.



You are quite quick to insinuate for a supposedly so open-minded person.

I don't think you speak German, Russian or Polish, do you? As I said grammatical-neutrum may sound like a "material" thing (in contrast to a "living" person). And that's just for these languages. In other languages it can be different again.
Also "Mr." and "Mrs."/"Miss" are similar enough to have also similar "Mx." for LGBTQ+ . But such similarities are not given in other languages that easy. That's all I have said!

Guys, please try not to get in an argument!
I understand that quite well, Freizeitfarmer, but there is no need to be rude to other commenters. If that wasn't your intention, I'm sorry but it's becoming/coming across as that. However, from what imnvs is saying, you do it on every thread you can. If you are supposedly not part of the LGBTQ+ community and you are just being rude to others, do not get involved! It's that simple.
Imnvs, I completely support you. While I understand that Mx cannot be translated to some other languages, you have people creating new words (like French's ''ielle''), or you could just say ''Farmer'', and I agree with your points. Freizeit is ignoring possible solutions, and its annoying to see.
But imnvs, don't waste your time arguing with this person. I wont anymore. Its not worth it, (if) they probably just want attention.

Freizeitfarmer, please, answer imnvs' questions - I'm sure I'll be interested in your answers.
(And please keep this disagreement under control; I don't want the moderators to have to get involved. )

 

[Yuni Cosmo]

The best solution going forward would be create a new game with this function. I mean if you put it in from the start it's less divisive than adding post release. Post release either as regional or just the new version causes arguement. It's like Conan exiles which had released without full nudity but made a patch for the European users to get the full models. This creates friction between fans and devs.

You might feel that that was off topic but I want to address the root issue. It's called censorship. Alot of users are trying to say not adding a gender neutral pronoun is censorship but frankly it's not. It's a new level of social dynamics that has occured since the game released. Heck I don't remember hearing people requesting latinx (which is new enough to fail spell check) when I first started playing. So please understand nobody is being censored here and this topic should not harm anyone's feelings one way or another.

People just want to be represented in a way that is comfortable for themselves. If the dev can make versions for open-minded regions that would be super. I just dont see a way to do it that won't have an internet blow up of negativity.

I don't completely understand about everything you're saying (Conan Exiles, Latinx), although I do agree that there would be negativity. But, personally, I would rather more nice people came to fill in the gaps of the ignorant or offensive ones. I already know its not censorship - I would be very annoyed if it was, and it could not be able to harm others, like you say. However, a new game with this function could still be received negatively, and would not have enough backup funds to continue running. Stardew should have a lot though (I assume).

Also, while it may create friction between fans and developers, fans should not complain to developers about features that may not even apply to them. Besides, non-binary options are already included in quite a few games - Stardew Valley would hardly be the first to add this in, so there will be less of an uproar than on others.
But yes, if they could pull it off, it would be super!

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

Yuni latinx is a proposal for a more politically correct term for latin Americans. Traditionally in Spanish the ending letter denotes male or female nouns. So by using the term Latino you are asserting a male grouping. This is also the default for mixed gender groups as they default to the male form. So feminist(the good kind) saw this as a form of suppression and proposed a neutral version to ensure that those that are female or non binary receive representation. Hence the creation of latin-x instead of latin-0.

Also my spanish hasn't been used much in the last few years so I have no idea how the o v a in nouns work for non binary as tio means uncle and tia means aunt. I mean it works on paper with letter substitution but no idea social etiquette for pronunciation.


As far as the Conan exiles goes is that it was a game that was released based on the Conan the barbarian book series. The series is heavy into content that will not go into main stream media much like dynareas(dragon chick) from game of thrones as her age would be problematic to film. However the game released where the woman could go topless (partial nudity). They secured a ESRB rating of M and the comparable ratings in other countries. Afterwards the devs release a free full in the buff mod (both genders) but only for Europe. This caused projected US numbers to drop because essentially they released a game censoring something that would not have affected the rating one way or another. Fan backlash played themselves as victims and saying they should be able to determine what content they see if that content is available

 

[Cthulhu]

"Latinx" is not particularly popular among the actual Latin population ( https://www.pewresearch.org/hispani...anics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/ is a good jumping-off point), but there ARE ways to skip the masculine/feminine binary even in gendered languages like Spanish; "latine" has been suggested, which uses the rare-but-already-existing neuter.

Long story short, there are Ways to be inclusive, regardless of language or culture. Let locals sort out how to do it, if it be tricky; honestly, cultures are different so there's only so far you can go with a one-size-fits-all approach. Focus on making the game you want, the way you want it, in your own language and in your own cultural framework, and people who appreciate your art will help localize it appropriately. Don't sweat perfection, but aim as high as you can. I think Stardew could be made gender-neutral, and there's no reason not to ask for it. If it doesn't happen, so be it; we'll still love the game for what it is. And if it DOES come to pass, we'll love it all the more.

(And I'll beat the drum one more time, because I genuinely think it's a solid solution: just remove gender entirely. Use any sprite, don't specify sex, replace pronouns with "they" and honorifics with "Farmer," ask if the player wants to adopt or make their babies, and don't bother saying who's carrying the child. If I wanna be a cis man, I'll pick a sprite that I think looks manly, marry somebody who I identify as a woman, and imagine her having my kid. If I want to be a non-binary female-bodied-and-presenting person who wants to marry a genderfluid male-bodied person, I pick the sprite I want, marry somebody who presents like my ideal partner, and again, fill in the rest with my imagination. It ain't rocket surgery!)

 

[Cthulhu]

And one more thing, since I'm all fired-up. If some benighted country doesn't want to let you play Stardew because they thing non-binary people are tiny baby Satans... that sucks. But watering down the inclusivity to get the game to more people doesn't actually do them any good. If I want to see a game that helps normalize the way I feel and live, but you cut that content out because my local censor hates it, I'm no better off than if you hadn't made the game at all. Self-censoring is still letting the thought-police win; you're just saving them some trouble by doing their job for them.

If you desperately want to maximize the revenue stream, there are calculatikns to make that can get you the most access, the most interest, and the most sales. If, on the other hand, you are not SOLELY concerned with the bottom line, then make the game you want, how you want, and censors be damned. You can't reach everybody, you can't magically make the world exactly how you want right away, so do what you can. If you care about representation, make it a priority. Releasing a game that 70% of the people can find and play and understand means you're reaching about 70% of the people who find solace because you recognize them and their lives as valid. Cutting that content means you release a game accessible to 90% of the world that serves 0% of those marginalized folks.

Yes, I understand--no, I GROK--the fear around changes coming to something you love. The characters in Stardew shouldn't be fundamentally changed, but again, I don't think removing gender from the game would necessarily do that. We all make assumptions about what we're seeing in the NPCs anyway, after all. Instead of saying why it can't happen, or shouldn't happen, leave the first up to Concerned Ape, and drop the second. Tell us *what you are worried about LOSING* if the game changes, so THAT can be addressed.

Phew! End of rant, off to set up a pop-up tent so I can work on my real-life chicken coop. I gotta get these little dinosaurs out of my basement and into their house!

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

I don't know but anyone wanting true inclusivity is asking alot for the devs. Because biologically Speaking there are 4 human genders being male, female, intersex, and inert(turner syndrome). Then you have the human self identity. Then you have the sex orientations. That's just for one facet of a person's identity.

There are no deaf, mute, autistic, dwarfism, gigantism or people of born disability. At a certain point it's less a inclusivity and it's more of a shoe horning. Kinda like how JK Rowling keeps modifying her established characters and makes it feel as she is trying to get people to notice her



Maybe the game needs to just allow you to input your farmers name. Pronoun, nickname, endearment name. That way the weight of the decision would be shifted away from CA and would bypass any *expletive* that thinks that they can dictate your identity for you regardless of that *expletive* being government, religious, or forum troll

 

[Odin]

While I understand a need and a want for this and support it at the same time you got to understand the potential bind it puts a developer in when trying to market a game in less open minded countries.

There's been several messages in the thread discussing this point, but this has essentially already been decided by ConcernedApe. Because of same-sex marriage in the game, Stardew Valley is unavailable for purchase in Russia, despite the game being translated into Russian and being previously listed for sale in the country before needing to be removed. I think we can say with some confidence that if CA is fine making that call for same-sex marriage, the same would go for a non-binary gender option. These sorts of considerations are more of a concern for big multi-national companies than a small dev team.

 

[Yuni Cosmo]

Yuni latinx is a proposal for a more politically correct term for latin Americans. Traditionally in Spanish the ending letter denotes male or female nouns. So by using the term Latino you are asserting a male grouping. This is also the default for mixed gender groups as they default to the male form. So feminist(the good kind) saw this as a form of suppression and proposed a neutral version to ensure that those that are female or non binary receive representation. Hence the creation of latin-x instead of latin-0.

Also my spanish hasn't been used much in the last few years so I have no idea how the o v a in nouns work for non binary as tio means uncle and tia means aunt. I mean it works on paper with letter substitution but no idea social etiquette for pronunciation.


As far as the Conan exiles goes is that it was a game that was released based on the Conan the barbarian book series. The series is heavy into content that will not go into main stream media much like dynareas(dragon chick) from game of thrones as her age would be problematic to film. However the game released where the woman could go topless (partial nudity). They secured a ESRB rating of M and the comparable ratings in other countries. Afterwards the devs release a free full in the buff mod (both genders) but only for Europe. This caused projected US numbers to drop because essentially they released a game censoring something that would not have affected the rating one way or another. Fan backlash played themselves as victims and saying they should be able to determine what content they see if that content is available

Oh okay, thanks for saying! That makes a lot more sense!

 

[Quillmagic]

I love the idea of a non-binary option, especially since my friend is genderfluid, with one gender being non-binary! I think it be a small addition to the game that would make a lot of people in that category who play the game. I unfortunately don't have many suggestions on gender-neutral terms and the like, I just wanted to jump in and show my support!