Non-binary option

[Freizeitfarmer]

I struggle with this suggestion - or maybe more with this discussion about it: as TheFireNight has written already it is not mission of this game (resp. no game at all) to change the world. And one simply can't consider all possibilities of human life to make everybody feel fully comfortable. So everybody should accept one kind or another of limitations.
This said I like to quote myself:

I would really like to see more game content added and I am totally fine when these content represents all the world in all its diversity.
BUT I totally disagree for the argument that every single thing has to represent all the worlds diversity - not for a TV series, not for a discussion session, not for a game.
Diversity doesn't mean to mix everything up include everything everywhere. It's more about having the chance to see/visit/interact/learn from consistent cultural groups and areas. Diversity means to accept (open minded) cultural areas one is not part of.
So regarding SDV: I like the game because it is a fantasy world where I can relax and "escape" from real world problems. I like SDV and fantasy worlds in general because there is no need to be always "world compliant". And I really hope the game does not integrate new stuff for reasons like "more dark skin npc would be nice since there not so many in the media".

p.s.: changed the quote slightly for more clarity. I am not native english speaking, so excuse my inaccurate wording.

 

[imnvs]

And I really hope the game does not integrate new stuff for reasons like "more dark skin npc would be nice since there not so many in the media".

So... people of color should be able to expect representation, but not every shade of LGBTQ should? Because that is what this says to me.

 

[Odin]

So regarding SDV: I like the game because it is a fantasy world where I can relax and "escape" from real world problems. I like SDV and fantasy worlds in general because there is no need to be always "world compliant". And I really hope the game does not integrate new stuff for reasons like "more dark skin npc would be nice since there not so many in the media".

I think the point here is that for some non-binary people, a game that doesn't offer a non-binary or similar option doesn't allow them to escape from real world problems. They're forced to confront that much of the world still sees gender as a binary- and that's not a pleasant feeling. So in that sense I'm not sure you're really considering where people are coming from when they ask for this feature.

I also just want to say- this is the Game Suggestion section of the forums. To say that "everybody should accept one kind or another of limitations" feels like you're saying people shouldn't make game suggestions, when that's exactly what this forum section is for. Please keep in mind that everyone is welcome to make suggestions of all kinds. If you aren't interested in a particular suggestion, then you don't need to comment on it. But that doesn't mean it's not important to others.

 

[imnvs]

I think the point here is that for some non-binary people, a game that doesn't offer a non-binary or similar option doesn't allow them to escape from real world problems. They're forced to confront that much of the world still sees gender as a binary- and that's not a pleasant feeling.

So. Much. This.

 

[Freizeitfarmer]

So... people of color should be able to expect representation, but not every shade of LGBTQ should? Because that is what this says to me.

What I wanted to say (and I am sure it was understandable even when I am not native english speaking) is that it is nice when the game becomes more options/content. And as I said I am totally fine when this represents parts of he world (real or imaginary fantastic) we haven't seen yet in the game.
But one shouldn't expect to get all things of ones own ideal worlds represented.
So I am not against more "diverse" content. But I am strongly against solving problems of the real world "substitutional" in a game. And that's what this discussion seems to me.

To make it more exemplary: in my town there are some toilets now which have "male", "female" and newly "others". But honestly: do LGBTQIA+ people use a toilet in another way than male or female? Is it really hard to chose "male" or "female" for the thing you want to do there? (see discussion here)
And further more: does THIS really help to be more respectful and open minded as a society? Sorry, but I can't see that.

I think the point here is that for some non-binary people, a game that doesn't offer a non-binary or similar option doesn't allow them to escape from real world problems. They're forced to confront that much of the world still sees gender as a binary- and that's not a pleasant feeling. So in that sense I'm not sure you're really considering where people are coming from when they ask for this feature.

I also just want to say- this is the Game Suggestion section of the forums. To say that "everybody should accept one kind or another of limitations" feels like you're saying people shouldn't make game suggestions, when that's exactly what this forum section is for. Please keep in mind that everyone is welcome to make suggestions of all kinds. If you aren't interested in a particular suggestion, then you don't need to comment on it. But that doesn't mean it's not important to others.

I am not against any suggestion! And honestly for me this game is already very open minded: you can look what you like, you can marry (or not) women as well as men (so already LGBTQIA+)...and maybe in future also other LGBTQIA+ villagers. It would be great if the real world would already be that developed.
But I think also it is impossible to have that much options to satisfy all sexual aspects of humanity. And even then what's about all religious aspects?
Simply: I would like to see more game-content instead of more personalisation for all sexual or religious aspects of the world...

P.s.:

As for your point about the spa... CA could avoid the entire issue by just adding a third door in the spa for non-binary farmers. Keep in mind there are always multiple ways to implement features in a game!

Please make it the other way around and just one door "locker room". So uni-sex instead of one door for each sexual identity.
Equality doesnt mean to make every difference visible than more that differences just doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Odin]

To make it more exemplary: in my town there are some toilets now which have "male", "female" and newly "others". But honestly: do LGBTQIA+ people use a toilet in another way than male or female? Is it really hard to chose "male" or "female" for the thing you want to do there? (see discussion here)
And further more: does THIS really help to be more respectful and open minded as a society? Sorry, but I can't see that.

Well, it's not really about how someone uses the bathroom. It's that some people aren't male or female. You're asking how hard it would be to choose, and the answer is it would be very uncomfortable for those people. And yes, I do believe that having a public space acknowledge the existence of LGBTQ people helps improve society. Think about it this way, there are lots of people who don't have a lot of awareness of LGBTQ people. So for a public space showing their existence is, for some people, going to introduce the idea that gender isn't just "male" and "female". And that's important. But I think we're getting a bit off topic here.

 

[imnvs]

What I wanted to say (and I am sure it was understandable even when I am not native english speaking) is that it is nice when the game becomes more options/content. And as I said I am totally fine when this represents parts of he world (real or imaginary fantastic) we haven't seen yet in the game.
But one shouldn't expect to get all things of ones own ideal worlds represented.
So I am not against more "diverse" content. But I am strongly against solving problems of the real world "substitutional" in a game. And that's what this discussion seems to me.

Emphasis added mine.

See, this is why people are reacting as if you're against the idea. Saying, on this idea, that you support inclusiveness BUT... see, oppressed people, like non-binary people are, have seen that word So. Many. Times. "I love you, BUT I don't love your lifestyle." "I like black people fine enough, BUT why do they all have to talk like that?" See, this is a keyword that we've heard so many times. It's the words of someone that isn't necessarily against the idea, but is definitely not for it either. If you want to present yourself differently, you'll have to try a bit harder. I'm trying to understand and give you a chance, but you now sound like you're doubling down. Maybe it is the language barrier? Maybe you don't know how to say it better? I'm trying to give you the chance to do so, but you have to try, because otherwise, all we hear is...

"I'm not against the idea BUT..."

...and then you tell us not to expect everything. We're not asking for everything. We're asking for ONE something very important to us because we don't feel represented in this way. People of color have some shades they can pick from that aren't lily white, but we can only pick from two genders... and neither represents us.

 

[Cthulhu]

Here are my flowchart and metrics:

Doe I like this suggestion? If yes, I say so, add any ideas I have that flesh it out, and/or link to already extant threads about it.

If no... Be it something that would be awesome with some tweaking? If yes, I offer suggestions.

If no... Be it something that would break the game? If yes, say so, and offer ideas to make it not-game-breaking.

If no... Be it patently offensive? If yes, say so. If not, but it be something that will make people uncomfortable or feel excluded, consider whether or not the suggestion would be opt-in rather than opt-out (e.g. you can opt-in to male or female gender, preference for partner, and appearance, but cannot choose whether or not to live in Stardew or have a pet). Offer suggestions to make the idea as opt-in as possible.

If no... Would it change a game mechanic or character in a way that lessens my enjoyment when I play? If yes, explain why and try to muster support for the current version.

If no... Shrug and move on.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here and guess that the resistance to adding a non-binary option reflects some understandable angst about some kind of social or personal-life change, or exhaustion with feeling like one is required to "appease an ever-growing list of the aggrieved" as it were. Also understandable. But unless you are actively involved in coding the game, this is literally as pain-free a way to support a marginalized group as possible. If the idea is taken up by ConcernedApe, we can do nothing, opt out of including non-binary language in our playthroughs, and STILL have people enjoy the game more and feel better about the world in general, which is pretty much the whole goal of Stardew.

 

[Freizeitfarmer]

Here are my flowchart and metrics:
[...]
If no... Shrug and move on.

So you ask me to not share my opinion?
BTW: if you read my text carefully you will find suggestions... ;-)

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here... to support a marginalize group as possible ...

I really don't think that "this is literally as pain-free a way to support a marginalize group as possible". I thought I had explained my concerns good enough. Do you really haven't understand my explanation?

 

[MaidenOfGore]

Here are my flowchart and metrics:

Doe I like this suggestion? If yes, I say so, add any ideas I have that flesh it out, and/or link to already extant threads about it.

If no... Be it something that would be awesome with some tweaking? If yes, I offer suggestions.

If no... Be it something that would break the game? If yes, say so, and offer ideas to make it not-game-breaking.

If no... Be it patently offensive? If yes, say so. If not, but it be something that will make people uncomfortable or feel excluded, consider whether or not the suggestion would be opt-in rather than opt-out (e.g. you can opt-in to male or female gender, preference for partner, and appearance, but cannot choose whether or not to live in Stardew or have a pet). Offer suggestions to make the idea as opt-in as possible.

If no... Would it change a game mechanic or character in a way that lessens my enjoyment when I play? If yes, explain why and try to muster support for the current version.

If no... Shrug and move on.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here and guess that the resistance to adding a non-binary option reflects some understandable angst about some kind of social or personal-life change, or exhaustion with feeling like one is required to "appease an ever-growing list of the aggrieved" as it were. Also understandable. But unless you are actively involved in coding the game, this is literally as pain-free a way to support a marginalize group as possible. If the idea is taken up by ConcernedApe, we can do nothing, opt out of including non-binary language in our playthroughs, and STILL have people enjoy the game more and feel better about the world in general, which is pretty much the whole goal of Stardew.

I'm just here to praise the almighty Olde one, the Great Dreamer - Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn... *hails*

 

[LRangerR]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn... *hails*

F'ng, Rude.

I really don't think that "this is literally as pain-free a way to support a marginalize group as possible". I thought I had explained my concerns good enough. Do you really haven't understand my explanation?

Understanding goes both ways my friend.

I personally don't mind being inclusive in diversity, as long as it fits the story/theme of the game. As @Cthulhu put it, it would lessen my enjoyment of the game if it was shoehorned in such a manner that was intrusive to the feel/flow of the game. For example, nobody complains that Leah is bi (or les, depending on how you view her), but it's also something that nobody really thinks about because of how well it's written into the story.

 

[MaidenOfGore]

F'ng, Rude.

Wait what Dx How!

 

[tomaO2]

On different note. I've been learning about the game and I found out that adding this option may not be as simple as changing a few pronouns.

I was rather shocked to find out that there is an actual storyline that involved George coming to terms with the fact that his grandson was in a gay relationship. This led me to an important revelation. It's not enough for Ape to just give you the option, it also needs to be explored in the game. The adding of George feeling uncomfortable with a gay relationship didn't need to be done, but it was, and it got a massive amount of positive attention on the subreddit.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

I assume it happened because Ape felt it was an important topic to address. Obviously being non-binary is not less important.

I'm sure many people would feel that it should be added and no one should comment on it in the game, but I believe Ape feels that he can't add the option without also addressing the matter in some way. The problem with doing so is that it's difficult to do so in a way that doesn't cause a severe backlash. If this is the case, then that is a very valid reason for him to not do it. The community is very sensitive to perceived slights, some even state that your character not having a non-binary option gives them gender dysphoria.

 

[Shart]

After reading this fun and heated discussion, I'm chimming in for a little bit. Personally, I don't mind adding the non-binary option. The more option there is the better it is.

I think what Freizeitfarmer is saying that if this suggestion is implemented, it means that there needs to be inclusion for all groups, not just LGBTQ. The question is to what extent?
This is just an anecdote: I have one really religious christian friend. She gets annoyed whenever a game has a conversation that says "oh, god" or "jesus". In this case, should there be an option to disable such language?

Anyway, this thread has gone way off rail. I think mod should just lock this thread. The arguments for both sides have been presented well imo.
Let's just leave it to CA to make the call whether or not to implement this.

 

[tomaO2]

The option is too popular to lock. There are several threads. If this is locked then another one will pop up. I think it's better to have one thread instead of constantly making new ones, and I feel it's best to let every person that comes in to be able to voice their opinion on the topic. Besides, there are over 4k views here. That makes this one of the most views threads in the suggestion forum, and also one of the longest. That should get a bit of respect.

 

[Odin]

We've been doing our best to keep an eye on this thread, and agree it's getting a bit sidetracked. I'd remind everyone this thread is for discussing a non-binary option within the context of Stardew Valley. Discussions of religion, real world LGBTQ issues, or what sorts of ideas make good game suggestions should be discussed in other threads.

 

[MaidenOfGore]

We've been doing our best to keep an eye on this thread, and agree it's getting a bit sidetracked. I'd remind everyone this thread is for discussing a non-binary option within the context of Stardew Valley. Discussions of religion, real world LGBTQ issues, or what sorts of ideas make good game suggestions should be discussed in other threads.

Sorry, my response here technically breaks the topic and I wasn't intending on it sounding rude or anything. Just was having a little fun cause I love Cthulhu :D.
As far as the topic of discussion, can definitely see all sides of the argument. I'm not non-binary so I can't speak on that. Just curious to see the debate here.

 

[LRangerR]

You messed up your quote (of me). @MaidenOfGore

Also I was joking about you being rude.

 

[LRangerR]

After reading this fun and heated discussion, I'm chimming in for a little bit. Personally, I don't mind adding the non-binary option. The more option there is the better it is.

I think what Freizeitfarmer is saying that if this suggestion is implemented, it means that there needs to be inclusion for all groups, not just LGBTQ. The question is to what extent?
This is just an anecdote: I have one really religious christian friend. She gets annoyed whenever a game has a conversation that says "oh, god" or "jesus". In this case, should there be an option to disable such language?

Anyway, this thread has gone way off rail. I think mod should just lock this thread. The arguments for both sides have been presented well imo.
Let's just leave it to CA to make the call whether or not to implement this.

There's no reason to lock it, but if people wanted to discuss some of the other topics brought up in here then they should probably create another thread so that this conversation stays on-topic.

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

As a furry my friends tend to take up alot of the gender spectum. I can see different being useful. I mean its a small change that would make people feel better so why not. I mean this game is meant to make people feel better its not meant to alienate ad I think CA has done a darn good job doing so