Non-binary option

[TheFireNight]

I understand the point of this suggestion, and I understand that it is important to feel included.

However, I see some extrem positions in this thread.

Rework dialogs in case of "non binary" gender choice, why not ? This would not impact too much the game for other players.

As long as it doesn't impact the game for "binary" people, I think it is fine. I don't think there is a lot of complain about being able to date same gender (If you don't want to, don't do it)

But let not forget inclusion is not a due from concerned Ape.

Let imagine a muslim for whom religion is very important. For him, it is unacceptable to see a woman without hidjab. As I can understand hid beliefs, I don't think the option to add hidjab to every woman in game would be accepted. (That is just an example, please don't go to a debate about how this example does not fit the original subject)

It is not "denying representation" not to implement feature.

SDV is just a game, not a representation of the reality. In some games you can only play a man, in some others only a woman. In those games, I don't think people complains about not being able to play as the other gender. You are not really the playable character, you don't cheat on your real life partner when you date an NPC, so why considering as an offend for him or her to be called "he" or "she" ?

Once again, I'm totally fine with this suggestion. But please don't consider it as a due or an offense if it is not implemented.

 

[imnvs]

[Original message removed]

Actually, since nobody would be forced to play non-binary, them being offended by others being non-binary should be a non-issue. And if two adults can marry and have children, both same sex and opposite sex, and that is considered rated G, so would someone being non-binary. That argument against this suggestion is empty.

It is not "denying representation" not to implement feature.

Actually, it is. If you could not play as a woman, every woman playing the game is playing a character that doesn't represent them. Same goes for non-binary people forced to play as male or female. If you could not change your farmer's skin tone to something dark, everyone that isn't white wouldn't be represented in the game. That's the LITERAL definition of representation in a game, being able to play a character with which you can identify.

 

[Magically Clueless]

Hey there, just a reminder to everyone to bring it back to the suggestion at hand, and to try not to get into meta territory. At the end of the day, this is a harmless suggestion for people who would like to better express themselves in-game, so we do not need to get too deep or serious about it. Let's keep the discussion respectful and friendly.

 

[SantaMiraEmma]

I would love to see this, one of my friends is so close to wanting to play and mentioned having a non binary option would finally get them to play.

Though I also understand that many languages don’t have words or direct translations for things like pronouns and such. Which is unfortunate but how things are with language and such. Like some languages not necessarily using pronouns, but words that refer to feminine and masculine. Then again I’m only monolingual so I’m sure others have better input than me.

But I love seeing those around me having inclusive options in the game, since it adds to the immersion <3

 

[lmizutani]

Having the dialogue refer to a person's name as opposed to pronouns could be easier to implement across the board across languages. Maybe?

 

[TheFireNight]

Having the dialogue refer to a person's name as opposed to pronouns could be easier to implement across the board across languages. Maybe?

The problem would be sentences as "Player told me that Player's farm lacks of chickens. Player want me to bring two news to Player". As you can see, it it not that good...

 

[queenofsprinkles]

I am nonbinary and would love the option to choose a gender other than male or female in character creation. People who aren’t nonbinary might not understand why it hurts a little every time we encounter a form or a menu or a selection screen that doesn’t include our existence, but it does. It isn’t like I’m going to not play my favorite game without this. I have many hours in the game and I love it. But I can’t truly play myself in the game the way binary folks can and I would love the opportunity. Representation matters, yes even in something so not serious as a video game.

 

[ISSsloth]

The problem would be sentences as "Player told me that Player's farm lacks of chickens. Player want me to bring two news to Player". As you can see, it it not that good...

Well there could also be:

Player told me that their farm lacks chickens. They want me to bring two news to them.

(What does that sentence mean though???)

 

[rippytrippy]

i'm cisgendered but i would love to see this. :D great idea!

 

[Cthulhu]

Non-binary would be a fantastic option.

There are a number of suggestions that people make that I think are silly or unnecessary, but if they don't break things that I don't like, it really doesn't affect me.

For people who support the non-binary option, let's remember that the original "I don't think we should add it" reply didn't say anything beyond, "I don't see the need" and an acknowledgement that they weren't well-acquainted with non-binary folks. That's okay.

My kid is non-binary, adamantly so, and not even ten yet. It's difficult, sometimes. I'm constantly trying to figure out the whys and wherefores: "Are they unhappy with their body? Uninterested in the opposite sex?" Are we going to have to think about surgery and counseling and gender-based violence? I wonder whether or not I'll get to have grandchildren. But ultimately, those worries are *mine*, and I'm not going to let them stand in the way of my child living their life. I'm *allowed* to want grandchildren, I'm *allowed* to wish that my kid had been happy with their gender, but I'm *not* allowed to push any of those things onto them.

I'm firmly on the side of the non-binaries on this issue, but I definitely understand how somebody could not understand its importance.

And dammit, I'm a language-loving grammar-fiend, and the pronoun thing drives me bonkers. But there's no unsolvable problem here. Let's add the option, make it easy to include or exclude as the player likes, and move on.

And kudos to Norski for being honest about their inexperience.

 

[imnvs]

The problem would be sentences as "Player told me that Player's farm lacks of chickens. Player want me to bring two news to Player". As you can see, it it not that good...

Except that people are almost 100% of the time talking TO you and never about you. They say "you" a lot. They say your name quite a bit. I don't think pronouns are used referencing you the farmer like... at all. The only thing I can think of is Willy saying "lassie" and "laddie" to you, but those aren't pronouns. I know a non-binary Scottish person who suggested "ladle" as as option, and while that is GD hilarious, something like "kiddo" would probably be a better substitution. It shouldn't be too difficult for other languages to find something not too far off the mark that would service.

 

[Alfyna]

For people who support the non-binary option, let's remember that the original "I don't think we should add it" reply didn't say anything beyond, "I don't see the need" and an acknowledgement that they weren't well-acquainted with non-binary folks. That's okay.

My kid is non-binary, adamantly so, and not even ten yet. It's difficult, sometimes. I'm constantly trying to figure out the whys and wherefores: "Are they unhappy with their body? Uninterested in the opposite sex?" Are we going to have to think about surgery and counseling and gender-based violence? I wonder whether or not I'll get to have grandchildren. But ultimately, those worries are *mine*, and I'm not going to let them stand in the way of my child living their life. I'm *allowed* to want grandchildren, I'm *allowed* to wish that my kid had been happy with their gender, but I'm *not* allowed to push any of those things onto them.

I'm firmly on the side of the non-binaries on this issue, but I definitely understand how somebody could not understand its importance.

First of all, this post is so incredibly elegant, and I just wanted to mention how lucky your child is to have a parent who works so hard to understand their needs and respond to those needs so selflessly. What a gift you are.

I truly think most people are on the same page when it comes down to it (yes this could potentially be a good thing if done well, but can it be sensitively and accurately implemented, will a faulty implementation cause more harm than good, etc) and I never get the sense on this forum that people are actively trying to sabotage each other's experience out of spite. I think what set the flames here ultimately comes down to the fatigue underrepresented groups feel when someone tells them they don't see the need for their accommodations while also not necessarily taking pains to educate themselves about those accommodations. Admissions of ignorance are wonderful, and so is the legwork afterwards to make sure every attempt has been made to walk in the other person's shoes before rendering judgment. We can all do with a bit more of that.

Either way I feel it's productive to have these kinds of conversations on the subject, even if things get a bit heated? lol maybe I'm just used to the carnage over at Gamefaqs but everyone's language here is so polite, even when tempers flare. The POVs are really interesting to read.

 

[Odin]

Having the dialogue refer to a person's name as opposed to pronouns could be easier to implement across the board across languages. Maybe?

The problem would be sentences as "Player told me that Player's farm lacks of chickens. Player want me to bring two news to Player". As you can see, it it not that good...

Worth mentioning that games like Animal Crossing New Horizons don't use pronouns at all and don't seem to run into issues, despite plenty of dialog with NPCs.

 

[rippytrippy]

Worth mentioning that games like Animal Crossing New Horizons don't use pronouns at all and don't seem to run into issues, despite plenty of dialog with NPCs.

ACNH only uses they/them pronouns as of right now, hopefully someday that will change though

 

[iridium quality]

I think that having a nonbinary option is a great idea. And for the people saying that it will be too much work: Ginger Island was a lot of work to implement. So was multiplayer. But CA did it. So I'm just saying that anything is possible.
From what I know about CA, he seems like a very cool guy who is inclusive of everyone, including the LGBTQIA+ community. So I think he would be open to this suggestion. And as the world starts to understand and accept LGBTQIA+ people and their differences, something like a nonbinary option in a popular game like this would be game-changing (pun not intended).
Also, a nonbinary option would include people who are agender, gender flux, genderqueer, gender questioning, and even demi-boys and girls. I know I missed a lot of people on this list, but what I mean is that having some kind of option to have they/them pronouns would provide representation to many other genders besides nonbinaries.

 

[Alfyna]

[Original message removed]

The very first thing that won my heart over in SDV was the realization that I wouldn't have to necessarily play as the opposite gender in order to romance my spouse of choice. It didn't have to be a concern literally at all, and that was so incredibly freeing that I fell in love with the game pretty much before doing anything on my farm.

I don't think anyone here is denying SDV or its creator the props they deserve for inclusion/acceptance. What this is -- and what other threads like this are -- is that continuation of climbing the ladder. I vividly remember back when Dragon Age Origins came out and there was that flurry of news reports condemning the same-sex relationships in the game, and... what was that. Barely a decade ago? A little more? It took so much sweat and blood to get to this point where this kind of representation is mainstreamed and normalized in a game intended for all ages. I don't know if everyone grasps just how much.

I think the point people are trying to make is that there is always another rung above the one you're on. This game succeeded in validating the GRSM/LGBT community and that is an incredible victory. Now who else can we work on welcoming into the mainstream? Who else can we validate and include and support?

tbh there should never be a point where we stop trying to reach for others. I'm glad people are passionate about this. It really demonstrates just how important of an escape this game has become to so many. I want a non-binary person to achieve the same level of joy that I felt when I realized I could love my spouse regardless of the gender of my farmer. It's important. It makes a difference.

 

[imnvs]

[Original message removed]

No. Not all options are on the table. That you seem to think so is becoming, frankly, very insulting. Being able to choose freely between the binary options, change your mind, change it again... that is 100% not the same as getting a third option so that NB people can feel like they are represented, that they are included, and that they are welcome. And honestly, you're not helping with that whole "feeling welcome" thing right about now with your attitude toward this idea.

Edit to add:

tbh there should never be a point where we stop trying to reach for others.

This. Thank you.

 

[CountBubbleRat]

I like my characters being as androgynous as possible, and I'm thrown for a loop every single time a villager needlessly points out my character's gender. Like, really, do you NEED to use gendered addresses in every second bloody interaction?
I really wish they had included a third dialogue option for those characters which insist on gendering you. I get that they are mostly old fashioned characters, but I'm not playing this game to encounter misgendering which I can get in real life.

I personally don't really mind having to choose an initial gender for my character, because that takes only a few seconds and then I can forget about it forever (with the exception of those gender-obsessed jerks in town), since the gender has nothing to do with anything else - you can still marry any of the marriage candidates, and have kids.

It's just so jarring to be playing nice and peacefully and suddenly having characters throw certain terms at you. I mean, sure, you could avoid talking to the townspeople all together, but still occasionally in cutscenes and events someone will refer to you by whatever gender you picked.

I really don't think it would be that hard to check for a single word in every language the game is available in, in order to add it in.
Although I'm sure the behind-the-scenes work is a lot more involved than that. (Especially given that some languages other than English have gendered words such as French, so perhaps there's even more to it in those languages.)
I agree with a user above who suggested simply replacing "miss/mister" with "farmer". (Although I know that some trans people get a rush from hearing their characters referred to by correctly gendered terminology.)
I also agree with a different user above, who suggested a text box for your preferred honorific - some people would no doubt use it to be silly ("Your Majesty", "Evil Overlord", etc), which is a good thing in a game like this. I have no idea how much work it would take, but it would make the game 100% perfect for me.

 

[CountBubbleRat]

If non-binary farmers were added, the game could just drop the distinction of adoption vs pregnancy. After all, I don't think there's much need for the game to get into the specifics in a world filled with magic.

As for your point about the spa... CA could avoid the entire issue by just adding a third door in the spa for non-binary farmers. Keep in mind there are always multiple ways to implement features in a game!

I agree completely - the distinction of whether your couple gets pregnant or adopts is not remotely important in this magical world, especially since your animals can give birth despite not having access to members of the opposite gender (plus Marnie refers to pigs with male pronouns, yet they are able to give birth as well).
I understand for some people it may seem important, but I personally cannot see why. It's already an identical experience with the exceptions of a word or two here and there.


I'm not sure about the spa, although to be honest I was shocked they had separate gendered rooms for it, given that the Harvest Moon game I played as a kid simply had a single hotspring, without gender restrictions. I always forget which gender I picked for my farmer, so I can waste a lot of time trying to get into one of the doors before realising that my character is the opposite gender. I don't really use the spa much, so I don't have strong opinions.
However I don't see why the spa couldn't have avoided the changerooms all together and simply had your character magically change into their swimming costume when they enter the spa building, or have a single-person changeroom to walk through if the game really felt that it needed changerooms.
(But I think these spa changes are far too big for a game that's already out and well established. They are just what I would suggest if SDV or a similar game were being made.)

 

[CountBubbleRat]

Except that people are almost 100% of the time talking TO you and never about you. They say "you" a lot. They say your name quite a bit. I don't think pronouns are used referencing you the farmer like... at all. The only thing I can think of is Willy saying "lassie" and "laddie" to you, but those aren't pronouns. I know a non-binary Scottish person who suggested "ladle" as as option, and while that is GD hilarious, something like "kiddo" would probably be a better substitution. It shouldn't be too difficult for other languages to find something not too far off the mark that would service.

I agree that (in the English version, at least) most conversations are directed to the farmer and thus don't use pronouns. There are some exceptions I think, such as when Marnie drops off your pet, I thiiiiink she turns to the pet and says something to it, which may include referring to the farmer by pronouns, but I don't recall.

I think the main issue is the honorifics.

Pierre often calls you Mr/Miss, so does the mayor, Jaz, and I think George.
I understand it from Pierre, because he is old fashioned and his daughter confronts him for clinging to outdated gender roles, so he is the sort of person IRL who would misgender someone (I still don't want misgendering in my idyllic game though, even if it makes sense for a character :P ). And George is the archetype of "raised in another time", but is really nice when he gets to know you.

I think the two kids being polite and calling you Miss or Mister is part of their charm, but in English there is no commonly accepted alternative, so I'm not sure what a kid would call an adult without gendering them.

Pam calls you "kid" I think. So I'm sure it wouldn't be too out of place to replace "miss/mr" with other terms.
Eg instead of "Mister Jo", they could call you "Farmer Jo" or simply "Jo".
I think this is where the perceptions of what is/isn't polite come into it. In some countries it would be rude to simply drop the honorific and call someone by their name, in which case a title would need to be substituted for the Mr/Miss.

So if the game is trying to represent an NPC as polite, they would need to put more effort in.
Someone like Willy is fine, because he refers to you in an endearing way which implies his age relative to yours. This leaves a lot of room to replace his gendered terms, while retaining his current personality.



Also slightly off topic, but if they can make Leah bisexual, so that her ex is the same gender as the player, then I don't see why it would be too much to have gender-neutral dialogue for the few NPCs who currently use gendered honorifics/terms of endearment.