Cleaning Stables and use the dung as fertilizer AND give animals the right food

Sayanna

Greenhorn
Hello!


Remember sad Shane, putting things in shelves, depressed about his life and his existence? Heartbreaking moment to see a young boy being so sad and unhappy about his life.
What about your farm animals?
I think it is time is to have more duties with your (farm) (and) (animals).


As soon as you are rich enough, you can buy the collector... And then technically you have nothing else to do with your stable pets.
To have animals is nice, but ... You technically have nothing to do than to USE them for making money.
They just need to exist for making you rich, sometimes you need to regrow the grass and get your stuff from them.
Thats it. Isn't that a real sad way to keep living Beings? Kinda the "Joja Way"?
You CAN say "hello" to them, but there is no really need for.
Also your dog or cat needs no food, chickens eat hay ... (not really).

So I want to tell you three points I would like to change (if this would be my decision).



1. Specialized Food for a more realistic gameplay

In real you feed animals with more than just hay. A chicken or a duck would never eat hay. Fresh grass yes, but no dry hay.
To support them with everything they need, you need to feed them wheat and seeds.
(for the eggs they need chalk but maybe that goes too far...)

So this are my ideas for animal food:

newfood.png

To introduce special needs, animals will have now TWO different heart bars.
The first one with red hearts is the one you already know - love your pet, talk to it, care about and hearts will fill up soon - means better Quality for your products they'll give you.
The second (new) one will show you, how good you care about this animal. Just let it exist and gain your products by the collector won't fill your heart bar in any way.
But talk to it, pet it and give it every special need will fill this bar with iridium hearts (picture 1).
Next to the age above the hearts you can see ►►► Symbols. That means, how fast the heart bar will fill itself. It will only drop, when you forget to feed or let sleep outside.
◄◄◄ Just means, the heart bar will fill very slow.
Reason for this idea: Do something to get something! You can't expect, that you just need to buy some animals and let them rot in their stables while producing high quality things.

Who needs what?


a - Give chickens and ducks wheat and wild seeds; rabbits carrots, meadow hay and shamrocks to eat, as they do in real too.
b - also add green hay for the horse, sheeps and cows and goats to eat (so you differentiate between hay for sleep on and hay to feed)
c - feed pigs with acorns, vegetable waste (made from cooking things. If you have no kitchen, you cant get vegetable waste and you cannot buy it elsewhere) and shamrocks.
d - give dinosaurs fizzlehead fern, common mushrooms and dandelions. You have special animals, so you should have special food aswell to make them happy.
e - (since the update for ginger island, i've seen ostriches, but for them I did not create food ideas because for now I have just an egg and don't know how to breed it)
Reason for this idea: Tell kids correctly, that it needs more than just hay. Teach them to CARE about special needs, make it more realistic, because I think, in our real world there are enough super big industrial "breeding machines" and much too less farmers, who love and care about their animals. Dont tell Kids the "Joja's way" of "using" farm animals, pls!

Where to get? (just the new objects)


- shamrocks you can collect by using your sickle on your meadow fields (or maybe you can grow them by seeds... It's not up to me, which way it will be, IF it ever will be)
- wheat seeds will drop when you use your sickle, same as when you pick up sunflowers and seeds drop.
- green meadow hay will now collectable when the meadow is green. You get yellow hay when it's autumn or by collecting wheat.
- carrots (the orange ones) can be grown by seeds and harvest in summer.
- vegetable waste can be produced by cooking things. It's the part of your vegetables, you usually would throw away.
- dogfood can be cooked from meat which you can buy at Marnie's ranch or by farming in mines.
- catfood can be cooked from fish which you can catch by yourself or buy from Willy.

Caring about all 3 special needs (just 2 for chickens and ducks, cows and sheeps, because these mostly are beginner-animals and we don't want to make it too difficult for them) will result in more love to the farmer (and will be important for step 2)
If you don't care about the special needs, you will NOT get dung to make fertilizer (which should worth a lot to make it more attractive). The heart bar of your farm animals will grow, but of course slower, as you would care for their needs.


It would look like this then (with no full heart bars, because they first need to grow with a better ministration) (and yes, I forgot goats):

love.png


Or like this, when you don't care about any special needs:

loveless.png




Now let's talk about, why special needs are so important.


2. Cleaning up Stables and craft fertilizer from dung


Maybe you already noticed :wink: - My Intention is to make animals more worth to care about. Animals love clean stables, so why not more care for them?
Why not having a win-win situation?
Happy animals (and I mean really happy ones, not such pets who are happy just to exist) support your farm not just by giving milk, wool and stuff...
The happier they are, the better poop you gain for making special fertilizer.

When you google about dung, you can find 4 types of dung.
From chicken, sheep, cow and horse. Here you see how long they fertile the ground:

dung_times.png


(I think it would be enough to have a fertilizer about 1/2 and 1 year, otherwise its too easy. )
The quality of the dung depends the ammount of the fertilizer.
Dung Buckets are rare and you cannot buy them anywhere.

clean_dirty.png


There are 2 ways to fertile a field. Decide, what you would prefer.
Way 1: You can craft this fertilizer by yourself by collecting dung buckets, transform them to fertilizer and use them like any other fertilizer too.
Way 2: Marnie will get a new dialogue and offers you to fertile your farm, if you have the ammount of dung buckets wich are needed for. (see the cyan boxes, left image)
You can only fertile your farm in winter and only prepared parts with your hoe can be fertilized. (Means, if you want the maximum fertilization, you need to use your hoe every step)
The nice thing is: Once you've worked the soil and it loses its usable area (for example if a rock appears there and you haven't dug up that piece of land anymore), the soil will be still fertilized for the remainder of the fertilizer's durability. All you have to do is dig again. (So it was worth digging all over the place, huh?)
In the picture on the right I just created a fertilizer with no trace of which animal it came from.

Raster.png
__
DungField.png



Last but not least:


3. Pet care!

This game can be played by kids which are 6 years and older.
In this age kids REALLY want a pet.
Dogs, cats, horses, hamsters, mice, whatever.
In my opinion kids should always learn, that nobody and nothing can live just from air and love.
They need to eat, they need to drink and they need a cuddle, same as humans too.

Nothing of this is part of this game.
You can "click" your pet and it will tell you "♥".
You can ignore it for 5 years - it will always say "♥" when you click it.
In my eyes thats not enough.
Imagine you're a dog or cat and your owner ignores you most of the time.
You get water when it rains, you get food from... well, from nowhere, if you don't hunt by yourself like a stray dog/cat.
Why you should "♥" your owner then? Why you should even want to live there?

When you decide to have a pet, it costs money, time and it needs to be fed.
Always. Not just, when you remeber or when you have time.

This should be possible!

petfood.png


You can buy this food from Marnies Ranch and you can cook it by yourself, when your kitchen is avaiable.
It even gives you XP!

Dogfood is basically made from meat, catfood mostly made from fish.
Maybe you have some ideas too for a good, tasty recipe.
Where can you get meat from? Yeah, good question. You can't slaughter your animals, so I think you should collect it in mines, where you also get bug flesh.
Or maybe Marnie sells meat, which you can use to cook.

IF there would be some changes because of this ideas, I think, the time should tick a BIT slower.
Or pause the time in stables, so the farmer has the chance to clean everything up before the day is lost to other things. (Cleaning will take a while...)


That's it for now.
I've been worked on this pictures the whole day and I'm sure, there are a lot of wrong words (I'm german and a bit rusty with my english) but I hope, you can follow me and know what I mean.
Good night and have fun with my monster text. (Well.. when you read this, you're already through it :wink: )

Let's hope, all this work was not a waste.

~ Sayanna
 
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1FlyCat

Planter
Very well thought out and illustrated. I'm in favour.

Making use of livestock dung as fertilizer and your suggested improvements to animal/pet care would be welcome additions to the game.

To introduce special needs, animals will have now TWO different heart bars.
To your point, I would just say that adding a second heart bar seems unnecessary and the current heart meter seems sufficient for what you propose.
 

Sayanna

Greenhorn
To your point, I would just say that adding a second heart bar seems unnecessary and the current heart meter seems sufficient for what you propose.
Hey 1FlyCat,
well, i thought that there needs to be a second heart bar to make the care-quality visible. Right now you don't really need to do much and the red bar still grows. That says nothing about your quality in care things, you know? Your dog also loves you and you dont even feed him.

Right now its enough to say hello to your pets, but... I am still not sure, if clicking twice to see their names aswell and to feed them by hand makes a difference.
I just suppose, clicking twice is more worth than just trigger the ♥ answer.

If there is no second heart bar, how players know then, how good is their Quality of ministration? I suppose, they can just guess. Like: "Okay, i got dandelion, shamrocks, vegetable waste, apples... Should be enough I think".

I just wanted to make it better visible for each pet, so even you forget one, you can see: "Oh, okay, this pet is not ministrated as its best, I need to care more about it. (Or when you want to sell it - ofc a higher purple heart bar will gives you more money than a pet you ignore. If you dont see a second bar, you need to click every pet and see what its worth. If you would see it, you know: This is my best cow". )
 
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1FlyCat

Planter
If there is no second heart bar, how players know then, how good is their Quality of ministration?
If you didn't pet or feed your dog the heart bar would reflect this by decreasing. My point is, I think the heart bar can also account for quality of care.
 

Sayanna

Greenhorn
yeah, but as I understood, you would like the dung, but no second health bar.
Means, they would give you dung, even when you dont care them?
Or do you mean, they just give dung with a maximum filled bar?
 

1FlyCat

Planter
Animals would always produce dung regardless of the heart meter. The quality of dung produced would vary based on animal care.

I suppose your suggestion of adding a second meter would work very much like animal mood:

 

imnvs

Local Legend
All the barn and coop animals have a "friendship" meter and a "happiness" meter. Why not just do the same for pets too?
 

Sayanna

Greenhorn
Animals would always produce dung regardless of the heart meter. The quality of dung produced would vary based on animal care.

I suppose your suggestion of adding a second meter would work very much like animal mood:



1621100559280.png


Okay, so what would you say if we change the idea from:

- animals give just dung, when you care them as much as you can

to something like this:

- animals always produce poop, you need to collect x pieces of it to transform into dung,
- animals can also produce Dung, it counts as "large product", so you can just get it when your friendship is between 240 and 255.
- to make sure, dung will still be a special worthful item, which is hard to get, it can only be possible to get when your luck is higher than "normal" (Mrs. Wellwick from TV needs to show that golden pyramid or the purple star).
 
I'm not sure about the dung thing. Honestly you have 10 types of fertilizer in the game. You have the bone mills that make bone meal fertilizers. Dung is however used as a mushroom cultivation. As chicken waste and other leavings are used for this.

You probably would want a composter structure/machine that would turn the dung into a fertilizer/seed generator. Maybe growing the seeds of items the animals didn't digest would be helpful for finding the items the animals like.

As far as the happiness bar vs the care bare it makes alot of sense as something can be happy but not cared for properly such as the chonker cats or Gordo iguanas that are common because the give animals what they want and not what it needs

Also you know someone is gonna want to use the dung and a sling shot........eww
 

1FlyCat

Planter
All the barn and coop animals have a "friendship" meter and a "happiness" meter. Why not just do the same for pets too?
I think it could be extended to pets.

As Sayanna indicates and as stated in the Wiki 'there is no mechanism for pet friendship to decrease. Ignoring your pet (or even using a slingshot on your pet) will not decrease friendship.'

So I think pet friendship would need to be reworked to account for this.
 
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imnvs

Local Legend
So I think pet friendship would need to be reworked to account for this.
If pet friendship simply worked like barn/coop animals, there would be a mechanism for friendship to decrease, though. That's part of what I was getting at. Simply making it work the same as everything else, with the two meters just like everything else, is a super simple way to get just about all the functionality being looked for there.
 

Anhaga

Rancher
I like the idea, in particular, of more intensive animal care in terms of types of feed--having the initial change of animals gaining happiness faster or retaining it better by feeding them specific types of food would be really cool. I don't think we'd need to have any additional types of feed, though, aside from perhaps the kitchen compost (which is something I'd love to have anyway, as it's right in line within what happens when you eat tons of fresh foods). Without introducing new animal feeds we could have:
  • basic hay: there's no need to have a separate category of meadow/green hay, as that's simply fresh grass, and if you want the animals to have that, you just let them out to range. Dry hay--stored hay, since you can't store cut grasses without drying them--is ideal as a base food for all of the barn animals (including pigs) and rabbits. Horses and rabbits can colic if they get too much fresh grass, so hay is a pretty critical resource.
  • dandelions: these are loved by pretty much all domesticated animals I know of. They were a staple green that I've fed both pet rabbits and livestock rabbits; chickens love having dandelions tossed into their pen; horses, cows, sheep, and goats eat them along with other broadleaf greens normally found in pasture situations. I don't specifically remember our pigs eating dandelions, but I'd be surprised if they didn't eat both leaves and roots. Dinosaurs, of course, can eat whatever the heck we want them to eat, so why not dandelions?
  • Apples, peaches, apricots, blackberries, blueberries, strawberries, corn, tomatoes, peppers, green beans . . . most of the fruit we grow is beloved by almost every farm animal I know (and some dogs)! All those would make great treat foods for all the coop animals and barn animals.
  • Amaranth in leaf form and seed form would be loved by chickens, pigs, horses, and cows. Rabbits, ducks, goats, and sheep would likely also love the greens. Again, dinosaurs, why not?
  • Sunflowers would be great treats for chickens and pigs, as would milk and eggs (yes, chickens love to eat their own eggs, both raw and cooked).
  • Wheat (unmilled) and wild seeds for chickens and as a supplemental horse food that makes the horse go faster.
  • Acorns are excellent pig feed with a long history. Honestly, I think we should also be able to mill acorns for acorn flour, but that's getting into a different question.
  • Kale, cabbages, parsnips, and cauliflower all all things chickens will eat up, likely pigs as well, though I'd never tried those on pigs.
  • Kitchen compost would be a great thing to have, period, as there's always a ton of trimmings and random bits when you're cooking with fresh veg. Pigs and chickens both love compost piles--both eat fresh veg trimmings, fermenting veg trimmings, and the bugs that also eat compost.
So start simple: let us feed animals foods we already have in-game for faster happiness gain and longer retention!
 
As much as I like the ideas in general and some in particular, animal care should still be balanced with other activity options. In the beginning one hasn't much automation and still a lot other time-eating tasks.
Also I think animal care should not be to complex to start early in the game. Some seeds/fruits or tools are harder to get than others.

Some others mentions similar ideas for pets/your horse already. Maybe these can be nicely combined.
 

Sayanna

Greenhorn
As much as I like the ideas in general and some in particular, animal care should still be balanced with other activity options. In the beginning one hasn't much automation and still a lot other time-eating tasks.
Also I think animal care should not be to complex to start early in the game. Some seeds/fruits or tools are harder to get than others.

Some others mentions similar ideas for pets/your horse already. Maybe these can be nicely combined.

Well...
If you have no time for animals - don't buy some then.
That's no excuse for me like "Hey, i am a beginner, i have no time for my animals, because i am new and need to clean the farm first" - okay, Beginner, come back to animals when you're ready for.

You can get seeds of wheat in Autumn, where is the prob? Youre busy with your farm anyway, until you have enough sprinklers for your fields.
If you want an easier way - make it possible to buy special food.

No matter which way, i think, time should not tick while you're in a stable. A ticking time leads to "Hurry, i'm in rush, have no time to care about you".
 

Sayanna

Greenhorn
I'm not sure about the dung thing. Honestly you have 10 types of fertilizer in the game. You have the bone mills that make bone meal fertilizers. Dung is however used as a mushroom cultivation. As chicken waste and other leavings are used for this.

Well, i guess, i didnt found that fertilizers then.... I just know 2 - standard and quailty.
All other things below are fast growing things or hydro gel to make the ground possibly wet the next day.

All i just want is a reward for the player to be a good herdsman. Not just with good products, because its no good care to get products by the collector and feed them just hay. Thats in my eyes nearly zero care.

Have a look on that fertilizers.

1. BASIC fertilizer.
Ingredients: SAP.
I googled - i found not a single fertilizer which is made from sap. Just some longtime fertilizers protect a core of fertilizer to rot slower. That's it.
Yes, it's simple, yes it's cheap - but no real fertilizer.

2. QUALITY fertilizer.
Ingredients: Fish and sap.
Yeah, add a fish. Makes more sense, since fish is a well known fertilizer. Sap isn't. For real this is now the first effective fertilizer - should be basic.

3. DELUXE fertilizer.
Ingredients: Iridium Bar + sap.
LOL. You add metal and sap + two completely useless things. Why an Iridium bar should fertilize anything?

4. TREE fertilizer.
Ingredients: Fiber and a stone.
Interesting, you remove fiber because it's nasty on your farm, but you shall sprinkle a tree with? What exactly is it which fertilize a tree by a stone?
Also this "fertilizer" makes no sense for me.

No idea what other 6 types of fertilizer are missing here, but just one of them makes sense. Why not replace that senseless stuff with dung, which isn't just a fantasy reciepe of rare or expensive objects?

Basic dung: just poop. mix into tilled soil.

Quality dung: fabricated poop with old hay. Higher quality, mix into tilled soil. Only from happy animals.

Deluxe dung: fabricated poop with an iridium bar - (just a joke)


1621936922668.png




You probably would want a composter structure/machine that would turn the dung into a fertilizer/seed generator. Maybe growing the seeds of items the animals didn't digest would be helpful for finding the items the animals like.

As far as the happiness bar vs the care bare it makes alot of sense as something can be happy but not cared for properly such as the chonker cats or Gordo iguanas that are common because the give animals what they want and not what it needs
Yeah, composter would be nice too, maybe the composter will work like the cask. As longer you let the dung inside the composter (which works like the cask), it will raise in quality.
 
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Well...
If you have no time for animals - don't buy some then.
That's no excuse for me like "Hey, i am a beginner, i have no time for my animals, because i am new and need to clean the farm first" - okay, Beginner, come back to animals when you're ready for.
No need to be rude to beginners!
The game should be fun in the first line. So why not start with animals early?
The difficulty should start low and increase with time and progress...

You can get seeds of wheat in Autumn, where is the prob? Youre busy with your farm anyway, until you have enough sprinklers for your fields.
If you want an easier way - make it possible to buy special food.

No matter which way, i think, time should not tick while you're in a stable. A ticking time leads to "Hurry, i'm in rush, have no time to care about you".
The whole game is about time management. Just like you don't want to have a ticking clock in the barn, others argue to have more time for fishing or digging in the mine.
Also, you say you have no "excuse" when beginners have no time, but in the same time you like to have endless time in the barn. This seems strange to me.
 

imnvs

Local Legend
I think the point wasn't to not get animals early, it is to not get all the animals early. Start with 2, not a full deluxe coop of 12 chickens.

That said, and while I can appreciate Sayanna's dedication to realism, I'm still on the "resistant to this idea" side of the spectrum at this point when it comes to all of this realism. I think too much realism could begin to start sucking fun out of the game by making things too complicated or take too long. The game is meant to be fun, and having some things simplified means they aren't as much of a chore. Additionally, a super-realistic approach to one aspect of the game... well, doesn't fit so well into the rest of the game. There's a lot of stuff that isn't super-realistic, like cooking recipes that only require a fraction of the ingredients they should and crafting recipes that are basically just ridiculous like the cork bobber which requires two types of wood and slime... to make cork... a third type of wood. Look at how we make clothing, by using just about any object, as if a sewing machine was a magic cauldron that magically transmutes anything you put onto the spool into magical thread that shapes the cloth into all sorts of silly things. And on top of that, there is literal magic in this game. Some suspension of belief has to come into play here.

So, I think this idea, while well-thought out and detailed, would complicate things too much. I'd prefer just a little more suspension of disbelief. (shrug)
 

Sayanna

Greenhorn
Also, you say you have no "excuse" when beginners have no time, but in the same time you like to have endless time in the barn. This seems strange to me.

Thats the point.
You can't care your animals like they deserve, when you have no time.
When you have no time to care, why they should give you better products?
If you have in real life no time for a dog, why you should get one then? Maybe for the dog itself, but if you have no time to go for a walk x times a day, then a dog is not the right pet for you, thats all i say.

I am not rude to beginners, i just say: To care animals you need time. If you dont have time, animals are no good idea.
To MAKE animals possible, so they are HAPPY, i ask for timeless places (or at least slower time places) like stables, because i think, caring animals shouldnt be a time problem.
You should have time to love them and to enjoy to care about without a ticking time in your neck which is hurry you.

You Understand?

Every pet should get as much time as needed, to make sure its happy and well pleased.

In my eyes its more a prob to have to hurry with caring animals. like: OMG so late, i have no time to pet them and see, if they are healthy, i need to fish because its raining and i need fish X which is just here at rainy days. After that i need to buy X Y Z...

With more time this would not happen.
 

Worblehat

Planter
There's a lot of stuff that isn't super-realistic
I think this point cannot be emphasized enough. I'm generally supportive of Sayanna's idea, but this game is wildly unrealistic, so arguments based on realism are in my opinion completely irrelevant. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the lack of realism has led me to interpret the game as a completely alien world populated by people and objects that ConcernedApe reskinned to look like humans and familiar terrestrial substances to give players a false sense of familiarity.

Taking the example of fertilizer recipes above, sure, by Earth standards it's total nonsense, but who knows what "sap" or "iridium" is on Stardewvia (or whatever the planet's name is), or what the biology of crops and trees is like there? Or if biology is even a sensible concept, given that we know that magic exists and can affect how crops grow; maybe "sap" is really a dilute form of whatever the crop fairy sprinkles on your crops. 🤷‍♂️

In my eyes its more a prob to have to hurry with caring animals. like: OMG so late, i have no time to pet them and see, if they are healthy, i need to fish because its raining and i need fish X which is just here at rainy days. After that i need to buy X Y Z...

With more time this would not happen.
Time management is literally the entire game. You make choices about what to do with the limited time available each day.

Also, note that barns and coops can be used for other purposes than housing animals. If they became stasis zones, that would mean that kegs would no longer process fruits and vegetables inside barns/coops (or wood chipper processing hardwood, or furnace processing ore, etc.), and that a player could craft everything they have resources for in zero time if they just put their chests (and optionally workbench) in a barn/coop.
 
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