1.6 Update Staircases in skull caverns question

[AguynamedBurt]

Have you ever noticed when you go into a floor in the skull caverns if there is a stair case already down somewhere on the map it’s very hard to find one via rock/ore. Sans the longish map that ends in a coal cart and a staircase… I don’t have problems finding staircase/shafts on that specific map.

Has anybody else noticed that? Or am I going crazy?

if it helps I’m on Switch.

 

[chaskuchar]

when i was researching staircases the info said if there is a staircase there you cant find one with breaking rocks. i don't know where i read that.

 

[HappyPenguin]

Have you ever noticed when you go into a floor in the skull caverns if there is a stair case already down somewhere on the map it’s very hard to find one via rock/ore. Sans the longish map that ends in a coal cart and a staircase… I don’t have problems finding staircase/shafts on that specific map.

Has anybody else noticed that? Or am I going crazy?

if it helps I’m on Switch.

I think it's something to do with how matters work. From what I understand, The chance of a ladder spawning goes up if you break rocks and don't find ladders, and goes down if you discover a ladder. Having a ladder at the beginning probably decreases your chance of getting another ladder/returns it to base chance.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, that's just my understanding.

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

Nah you ain't going crazy, and as a Switch player my experience had been the same.
This feels like a 1.6 thing, and I have noticed and remarked that some time ago as well. Feature or bug, I can't say for sure.

However, I'm pretty sure in the past existing staircases do not completely block the chance of rocks-stair pre-1.6 because I have never remembered needing to scour through a whole map on a very lucky day as often as I do now to find the single staircase spawn - I was always able to bomb through rocks and find them fairly often. This memory should be accurate, too, because this behavior fundamentally change how I approached going through the cavern.

I haven't looked into the code though, so this is still merely an observation and not proof.

 

[Jianadaren1]

Have you ever noticed when you go into a floor in the skull caverns if there is a stair case already down somewhere on the map it’s very hard to find one via rock/ore. Sans the longish map that ends in a coal cart and a staircase… I don’t have problems finding staircase/shafts on that specific map.

Has anybody else noticed that? Or am I going crazy?

if it helps I’m on Switch.

Yes, whenever a ladder spawns as a freebie/from crushing rocks, another ladder of that type will not spawn. This doesn't apply to ladders that are part of the map design. Source: Blade, per video below

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[FilthyGorilla]

Have you ever noticed when you go into a floor in the skull caverns if there is a stair case already down somewhere on the map it’s very hard to find one via rock/ore. Sans the longish map that ends in a coal cart and a staircase… I don’t have problems finding staircase/shafts on that specific map.

Has anybody else noticed that? Or am I going crazy?

if it helps I’m on Switch.

I think it's something to do with how matters work. From what I understand, The chance of a ladder spawning goes up if you break rocks and don't find ladders, and goes down if you discover a ladder. Having a ladder at the beginning probably decreases your chance of getting another ladder/returns it to base chance.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, that's just my understanding.

Nah you ain't going crazy, and as a Switch player my experience had been the same.
This feels like a 1.6 thing, and I have noticed and remarked that some time ago as well. Feature or bug, I can't say for sure.

However, I'm pretty sure in the past existing staircases do not completely block the chance of rocks-stair pre-1.6 because I have never remembered needing to scour through a whole map on a very lucky day as often as I do now to find the single staircase spawn - I was always able to bomb through rocks and find them fairly often. This memory should be accurate, too, because this behavior fundamentally change how I approached going through the cavern.

I haven't looked into the code though, so this is still merely an observation and not proof.

You're right in saying that it goes up as you break rocks, the chance increases with luck buffs and daily luck, as well as also having an additional boost if you have killed all the monsters on a floor.
Once you find a ladder from breaking rocks, or if there is a naturally spawned ladder that isn't from a special floor that always has one (doesn't apply to placing ladders, ladders from enemies, finding a shaft), no other ladders will spawn, their spawning mechanic is completely replaced on that floor.

This has existed the same way for basically as long as the game has been around with little change, it was not a new 1.6 change to any mechanics. Feel free to ask any questions about exact chances or anything, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

You're right in saying that it goes up as you break rocks, the chance increases with luck buffs and daily luck, as well as also having an additional boost if you have killed all the monsters on a floor.
Once you find a ladder from breaking rocks, or if there is a naturally spawned ladder that isn't from a special floor that always has one (doesn't apply to placing ladders, ladders from enemies, finding a shaft), no other ladders will spawn, their spawning mechanic is completely replaced on that floor.

This has existed the same way for basically as long as the game has been around with little change, it was not a new 1.6 change to any mechanics. Feel free to ask any questions about exact chances or anything, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject.

This just hasn't been my experience though, I actually have videos in the past where I have a spawned in staircase in skull cavern and then found another stair or hole.

But at least in 1.6+ on the Switch, this is now in alignment of whatever you observed. I don't know if it is a Switch-specific change/fix(?) or what have you, but something definitely changed there.

 

[FilthyGorilla]

This just hasn't been my experience though, I actually have videos in the past where I have a spawned in staircase in skull cavern and then found another stair or hole.

I mean I'd love to see it if so, it'd have to be a video of you breaking a rock, it giving specifically a ladder, then breaking another rock and getting another ladder (or shaft for the second).

Because it's worked like this forever, and switch rng is offset, though it shouldn't and should have never impacted any mechanic in such a way.

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

I mean I'd love to see it if so, it'd have to be a video of you breaking a rock, it giving specifically a ladder, then breaking another rock and getting another ladder (or shaft for the second).

Because it's worked like this forever, and switch rng is offset, though it shouldn't and should have never impacted any mechanic in such a way.

Ah no, I haven't seen that. I was referring to the scenario the OP has originally mentioned:
that a ladder has already been spawned in at the map (without breaking any rocks or slaying any enemies), and then after bombing some rocks, a new ladder / hole is present.

I would upload a video but I think the forum doesn't allow that medium? I can upload a series of pictures later instead once I find some time after work.

 

[AguynamedBurt]

Well if that’s how the mechanics have always worked then I must be mistaken. I just don’t remember going down to a floor, bombing a spot or two with no shaft or staircase and then thinking to myself “there must already be a staircase on this floor”. It was just a new experience for my wife and I, and it’s changed our approach to deep dives.

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

So I have reviewed my video again, and I think that one may have some shenanigans at play there? Although they were two separate instances of rocks being broken, they were broken at the "same time". As in, I placed a bomb, and while waiting for the bomb to explode, I moved elsewhere and pickaxed a rock - at the same time the two actions execute and dropped a staircase and a hole.

The other instances of multiple staircases are more concretely from the same instance - as in one bomb unraveled multiple staircases/hole. I think that falls under your expected scenario though, and that still exists in 1.6 switch as of now.

Unfortunately, I don't think I've captured much of Skull Cavern videos otherwise because I wasn't actively screenshotting at the time for this purpose haha (... they are usually for more interesting phenomena like having 20+ bugs on a floor, or a huge cluster of iridiums at single-digit floors, etc.), but I just remembered my brother probably still have pre1.6 SDV on his switch since he stopped playing, if I can convince him to let me borrow his to play for a few hours I can probably test this more definitively (that is the hard part).

Other than that, now I hesitate to say I remembered properly except for the fact that there was a fundamental change to my "muscle memory" for the caverns. I won't be surprised if it was just that I was carrying large bombs and there just are more multi-staircases often as a consequence, or that the second sets of staircases are all from slain monsters after initially breaking open a rock.

That's all the update I have so far!

 

[Ereo]

According to the wiki, the holes do not impair other ladder, so you can get multiple holes, but only one ladder under rocks. And you can still get ladders from killing monsters.

 

[FilthyGorilla]

Ah no, I haven't seen that. I was referring to the scenario the OP has originally mentioned:
that a ladder has already been spawned in at the map (without breaking any rocks or slaying any enemies), and then after bombing some rocks, a new ladder / hole is present.

I would upload a video but I think the forum doesn't allow that medium? I can upload a series of pictures later instead once I find some time after work.

That would also work, so long as it isn't on a floor that doesn't already naturally spawn with a ladder (like the horizontally long one with a minecart at the end)

So I have reviewed my video again, and I think that one may have some shenanigans at play there? Although they were two separate instances of rocks being broken, they were broken at the "same time". As in, I placed a bomb, and while waiting for the bomb to explode, I moved elsewhere and pickaxed a rock - at the same time the two actions execute and dropped a staircase and a hole.

The other instances of multiple staircases are more concretely from the same instance - as in one bomb unraveled multiple staircases/hole. I think that falls under your expected scenario though, and that still exists in 1.6 switch as of now.

Unfortunately, I don't think I've captured much of Skull Cavern videos otherwise because I wasn't actively screenshotting at the time for this purpose haha (... they are usually for more interesting phenomena like having 20+ bugs on a floor, or a huge cluster of iridiums at single-digit floors, etc.), but I just remembered my brother probably still have pre1.6 SDV on his switch since he stopped playing, if I can convince him to let me borrow his to play for a few hours I can probably test this more definitively (that is the hard part).

That would also still work, yeah. You probably uncovered the hole fractions of a second before uncovering the ladder, as the shafts don't impact ladder spawning, you can potentially get many shafts, though the chance gets exponentially small. Any breaking of rocks counts as player breaking (pickaxe, explosives, monsters), so that wouldn't be a factor

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

That would also still work, yeah. You probably uncovered the hole fractions of a second before uncovering the ladder, as the shafts don't impact ladder spawning, you can potentially get many shafts, though the chance gets exponentially small. Any breaking of rocks counts as player breaking (pickaxe, explosives, monsters), so that wouldn't be a factor

Ah, yeah - that was exactly what we are claiming -
The below used to work on the Switch:

that a ladder has already been spawned in at the map (without breaking any rocks or slaying any enemies), and then after bombing some rocks, a new ladder / hole is present.

That is no longer the case. If a ladder has already been spawned in at the map, there will never be any staircases (or shaft? for that matter). We have to comb through the floor to find that one spawned in staircase, wherever they may be or however far into the map they are.

 

[AguynamedBurt]

With bombs I’ve uncovered multiple staircases or shafts, especially with a late game buff. But even with that buff if a staircase has been spawned it’s almost impossible to find a staircase with bombs.

That being said, this 1.6 play through I’ve made it down the furthest I’ve ever done in this game. So it’s not impeding my progress in the slightest

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

Agreed lol, recently made it to 200+! The speed buff stacks of modern SDV are truly a marvel

 

[AguynamedBurt]

Agreed lol, recently made it to 200+! The speed buff stacks of modern SDV are truly a marvel

Me too, I forget the exact level I hit… but it was way further than I have done ever before 1.6

 

[FilthyGorilla]

Ah, yeah - that was exactly what we are claiming -
The below used to work on the Switch:


That is no longer the case. If a ladder has already been spawned in at the map, there will never be any staircases (or shaft? for that matter). We have to comb through the floor to find that one spawned in staircase, wherever they may be or however far into the map they are.

No, what I am saying is that the case below NEVER worked, it is either some sort of mandela effect or you're misconstruing cases (like the one you mentioned) with shafts, which CAN operate like such.

What I was saying that I think you misunderstood is that floors can work like that but only specific ones (that always have a ladder, floors 12, 52, 92, and their respective layouts in sc). Otherwise, if the check succeeds to spawn a ladder in when you enter, it always blocks subsequent ladder spawns, and always has.

 

[PerfectionWhaleFarm]

No, what I am saying is that the case below NEVER worked, it is either some sort of mandela effect or you're misconstruing cases (like the one you mentioned) with shafts, which CAN operate like such.

What I was saying that I think you misunderstood is that floors can work like that but only specific ones (that always have a ladder, floors 12, 52, 92, and their respective layouts in sc). Otherwise, if the check succeeds to spawn a ladder in when you enter, it always blocks subsequent ladder spawns, and always has.

Oh honestly I got confused lol - you quoted mine directly and then replied with it still worked. Gotcha, and you know what it probably might be a misconstruction because I never distinguished shafts and staircases when going down mechanically and didn't pay attention to their subtle differences. Upon reviewing your full list of conditions for never having double staircases, I still see the potential for multiple staircases/shafts on a floor without breaking that rule is still quite ample - whether or not the "muscle memory" aspect of descending 1.6 skull caverns felt different really could be anything else at this point. I will still give my bro's save a try when the chance comes just to see if I can find some proof, but it wouldn't be anything urgent I would want to do.

I did find that regardless of how trivial the differences are in randomization, certain discrepancies did lead to game-breaking inaccuracies such as remixed mines not spawning the full list of items... was there a technical need to switch up RNG on the Switch? That is more of a personal curiosity for me.

 

[FilthyGorilla]

Oh honestly I got confused lol - you quoted mine directly and then replied with it still worked.

Yeah sorry for that, I was responding to a couple things together but then only linked the one that doesn't make sense when replied to exactly like that. Context context context

I will still give my bro's save a try when the chance comes just to see if I can find some proof, but it wouldn't be anything urgent I would want to do.

Yeah don't feel pressured to, ping me if you ever do though, I'd like to see

I did find that regardless of how trivial the differences are in randomization, certain discrepancies did lead to game-breaking inaccuracies such as remixed mines not spawning the full list of items... was there a technical need to switch up RNG on the Switch? That is more of a personal curiosity for me.

It's incredibly easy, a number here, a > symbol instead of a >= symbol there.
I would also like to know why the switch is different, I'd assume something to do with nintendo? Though I can't really grasp the motive