Please make Fruit Tree Quality have some effect on Kegs/Jars

[DemiserofD]

By the time a player has Iridium Fruit Trees, they'll absolutely be able to have enough kegs to process 100% of the produce of their farm. After all, it takes four years!

Sadly, that means that by the time you can get iridium tree fruit, it doesn't even matter anymore.

It would be really nice if tree fruit quality had some effect when it's used in kegs or jars. Maybe if I put a quality fruit tree fruit into a jar or keg, I get a chance to get a double output depending on the quality? So silver gives double 25% of the time, all the way up to Iridium giving double all the time? At least that way, the quality of the Tree Fruit is actually worth something.

 

[imnvs]

I like the idea, basically... but may I point out and recommend?

First, it takes 1 month for tree fruit to start producing and for 1 year produces regular quality, 1 year produces silver, 1 year produces gold and then produces iridium quality fruit... so this means it takes 3 years 1 season from planting to begin producing iridium quality tree fruit.

Second, if quality of produce of one type has a chance of extra production in the artisan machine, shouldn't all produce have the same chance? It makes no sense for quality of pumpkin to have no chance of double production but your cherry has a chance.

Third, a 100% chance of double production is a bit high, no? Wool has a chance of double production in the loom, but it isn't 100% even at iridium quality. May I recommend we simply ask for the same chances for double production from kegs/jars as there is at the loom?

 

[Freizeitfarmer]

Second, if quality of produce of one type has a chance of extra production in the artisan machine, shouldn't all produce have the same chance? It makes no sense for quality of pumpkin to have no chance of double production but your cherry has a chance.

I think all fruit should have the same chance for more output depending on their quality.
See when one tries to make marmalade one has less loss with better fruits. With bad fruits one has more to cut away beforehand.

Third, a 100% chance of double production is a bit high, no? Wool has a chance of double production in the loom, but it isn't 100% even at iridium quality. May I recommend we simply ask for the same chances for double production from kegs/jars as there is at the loom?

Maybe each better quality could bring 15% more change for double output - so iridium quality would give 45% so nearly for each second fruit !?

 

[DemiserofD]

Second, if quality of produce of one type has a chance of extra production in the artisan machine, shouldn't all produce have the same chance? It makes no sense for quality of pumpkin to have no chance of double production but your cherry has a chance.

I mean...logically, yes? But that doesn't really fix the problem, either. It makes everything more profitable, but tree fruit will still be far behind. By making it exclusively tree fruit, it solves the problem in a clearly defined way, without needing to change the existing mechanics for anything else.

IE its just simplest and sometimes that's best.

Third, a 100% chance of double production is a bit high, no? Wool has a chance of double production in the loom, but it isn't 100% even at iridium quality. May I recommend we simply ask for the same chances for double production from kegs/jars as there is at the loom?

Well, the reason I say double is because that most closely matches the price you get from ancient fruit, and getting trees is quite a bit harder than getting ancient fruit. Kegging one ancient fruit for a year gives about 10k gold, with this, kegging one pomegranate tree for a year would give slightly more(about 12k), but given it takes more than three years to reach that point, compared to ancient fruit being possible in less than two, I think that's probably fine. Iridium trees SHOULD be highly rewarding. Bananas would take far, far longer, and give slightly more still.

 

[imnvs]

So what I'm hearing is that your real issue is with the value of tree fruit. We could solve that by simply increasing tree fruit value. That would increase the value of everything made from them too.

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

Yeah imnvs has a better solution. Doubles seem a little over kill. Especially 100 double for iridium.

 

[DemiserofD]

So what I'm hearing is that your real issue is with the value of tree fruit. We could solve that by simply increasing tree fruit value. That would increase the value of everything made from them too.

No,, that wouldn't solve it either. In order to make them worthwhile in that direction and keep the slow increase in quality relevant, you'd need to make the iridium star fruit as valuable as ancient fruit wine.

Whatever solution comes, it needs to work with the slow increase in quality.

 

[imnvs]

Why does it need to, though? I mean, why does it have to have a monetary increase in price? It already has a increase in value as a gift. They're a truly universally-liked gift with the only exceptions being that certain ones are loved gifts for certain people... and over time you get absolute PILES of them that you can just pass out to folks like they're Pez.

Honestly, the fact that it takes as long as it does for them to gain in quality, imho, isn't a strong enough reason for their increase in quality to have a corresponding increase in value of the production when nothing else sees anything like that. Yes, this is quite honestly a fantasy game, but there should be some internal consistency.

I mean, I get that for the space they take up and the initial investment for them, not to mention the fact that if you want any decent production out of them you need to put them in your greenhouse (which means waiting until you unlock that) or Ginger Island (which means unlocking that, and no question won't happen before the greenhouse), they aren't worth a lot in the long run, and especially the amount of grinding it takes to get certain trees, it feels like that work should be rewarded better. I absolutely do get the feeling that tree fruit are underpowered and possibly even overrated... I just think there are easier and more consistent fixes, as I've suggested as alternatives already.

You're dead set on your version and aren't open to suggestions? Okay. That's cool. Peace out.

 

[DemiserofD]

Why does it need to, though? I mean, why does it have to have a monetary increase in price? It already has a increase in value as a gift. They're a truly universally-liked gift with the only exceptions being that certain ones are loved gifts for certain people... and over time you get absolute PILES of them that you can just pass out to folks like they're Pez.

Honestly, the fact that it takes as long as it does for them to gain in quality, imho, isn't a strong enough reason for their increase in quality to have a corresponding increase in value of the production when nothing else sees anything like that. Yes, this is quite honestly a fantasy game, but their should be some internal consistency.

I mean, I get that for the space they take up and the initial investment for them, not to mention the fact that if you want any decent production out of them you need to put them in your greenhouse (which means waiting until you unlock that) or Ginger Island (which means unlocking that, and no question won't happen before the greenhouse), they aren't worth a lot in the long run, and especially the amount of grinding it takes to get certain trees, it feels like that work should be rewarded better. I absolutely do get the feeling that tree fruit are underpowered and possibly even overrated... I just think there are easier and more consistent fixes, as I've suggested as alternatives already.

You're dead set on your version and aren't open to suggestions? Okay. That's cool. Peace out.

I'm not dead set on anything, I'm only presenting my thought process. No need to get offended.

Here's what I want; I want Fruit Trees to be a viable alternative to Ancient Fruit(which is reasonable, I think, since they take more time to properly set up), and I want their mechanic of increasing in quality each year to be relevant. That's all!

This disallows some things. For example, you can't just increase their value, because that also increases the value when kegging them, which makes their quality irrelevant. You can't make quality universally effect keg production, because that doesn't change their relative value, since it increases the value of all crops universally.

Their value as gifts is nice, true, but only for 1-2 trees, which is no different from what we already see, and for the most part you'd expect to already have all the villagers at maximum friendship by the time you're getting iridium fruit.

I'm searching for a way to make trees a viable long-term investment without significant changing every other part of the game, which is already in a pretty good spot. Is that such a bad thing?

 

[imnvs]

They take more time to get higher quality produce, not to get set up. Ancient fruit on a profitable level takes seasons (usually about 3 just to fill your greenhouse) but fruit trees takes stopping by Pierre's and finding a spot to plunk it down.

As far as making it a good investment, doesn't simply changing the value increase the value of the investment? Why reject that as a possible way to address their viability or competitiveness? You said that it doesn't address the quality issue... but I'd maintain that getting a good farming skill and getting the fertilizer necessary to get high quality crops takes more work than either getting an ancient fruit farm started or getting a tree fruit farm started. I think you're discounting that and only looking at the gold cost when investing in starting said farm up... and I think you're forgetting that farming has a cost for starting every crop that you will receive, and you're only paying once for what is effectively infinite tree fruit.

I do think tree fruit need a boost to value... but adding a complicated quality-based system (instead of addressing the underlying problem), and ignoring other crops just because you want tree fruit to compete with ancient fruit? I don't think that's a solution that is internally consistent, sorry.

 

[DemiserofD]

They take more time to get higher quality produce, not to get set up. Ancient fruit on a profitable level takes seasons (usually about 3 just to fill your greenhouse) but fruit trees takes stopping by Pierre's and finding a spot to plunk it down.

As far as making it a good investment, doesn't simply changing the value increase the value of the investment? Why reject that as a possible way to address their viability or competitiveness? You said that it doesn't address the quality issue... but I'd maintain that getting a good farming skill and getting the fertilizer necessary to get high quality crops takes more work than either getting an ancient fruit farm started or getting a tree fruit farm started. I think you're discounting that and only looking at the gold cost when investing in starting said farm up... and I think you're forgetting that farming has a cost for starting every crop that you will receive, and you're only paying once for what is effectively infinite tree fruit.

I do think tree fruit need a boost to value... but adding a complicated quality-based system (instead of addressing the underlying problem), and ignoring other crops just because you want tree fruit to compete with ancient fruit? I don't think that's a solution that is internally consistent, sorry.

There are plusses and minuses to any crop. You're right that other crops require more upfront costs, but they also don't take up valuable space for three months of the year where they produce nothing at all. All in all, I'd argue they're somewhat equal on that domain. But I'd absolutely argue that fruit trees are much harder to get started on, simply because the upfront cost is so high, and in the early parts of the game, that money can be spent in other ways that lead more directly to income. For example, I could buy 5 pomegranate trees on Spring 28 and make 4000g in the first year, or I could put that same 30000g into crab pots and immediately begin harvesting 3200g every single day. By contrast, ancient fruit is free, and grows exponentially. I typically find my first ancient seed in the first 2 weeks and plant it immediately, get 44 ancient seeds by the end of the first fall, plant them in my greenhouse, and by the time second spring rolls around, I'll have an entire greenhouse full of them available for seeds, free of charge.

The reason I don't think simply increasing the value is the ideal way to make them better is because it basically ignores their most unique attribute, the slow scaling of quality. Why add a unique mechanic like that and then ignore it completely?

I suppose an alternative would be to get rid of the quality system entirely, and just have them produce more fruit instead. 25% chance for bonus fruit in year 1, 50% in year 2, 100% in year 3 and onwards.

 

[Worblehat]

Why do you believe fruit trees are not currently a viable alternative to ancient fruit? A pomegranate or peach tree is almost twice as productive as an ancient fruit plant (about 66k/yr to 37k/yr), assuming both are planted in the greenhouse and you have the keg capacity to process everything. That part is much more work for the tree than for the ancient fruit, which is why I don't do it. If you're planting trees outside the greenhouse (or Ginger Island), as implied by "take up valuable space for three months of the year where they produce nothing at all", that's highly suboptimal.

I do agree with the premise of the thread, that it's a shame that quality doesn't matter, and in fact is slightly counterproductive. If there were a Fertilizer of Mediocrity that would force a plant to produce base quality produce, I'd use that pretty widely for ease of inventory stacking. And that by itself is a strong case that the quality system and how it interacts with kegs/jars could use a rework.

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

I agree with worblehat on this.

However there is kinda a real world reason though about quality and such. People have always historically used the worst quality produce/meats to make processed goods. Wheat and barley don't matter for beer, but when it comes to cider, wines and whiskeys you can just cut off the bad portions and use the rest (or skip it who would know) and after the ferment the product would be identical as the prominent characteristic is the sugar content.

Now I know the first argument is grapes and the loving care for vineyards and good/bad years. The thing is wine grapes are closer to horse grapes(muscadines) in that the outer skin is much thicker than table grapes and would be to bitter to eat as is(the flesh is sweet though). So they are actually bred specifically for ferment. Her is the thing though about good and bad years. It's all bs. No sommelier can tell the difference. Sure a merlot vs a muscatto have different flavor profiles but those oak flavors and all other adjectives are pretty much made up on the spot or indoctrinated because that's what they were told. The simple addition of flavorless food coloring will change how they describe the wine if if tried back to back. So in the end it just matters that the grapes are in reasonable condition rather than champagne grapes from the champagne region of France as sparkling wine and champagne are the exact same if the ferment culture is the same.

 

[SuperChouette]

I think a small increase in value would be nice. Perhaps gold and iridium fruit could produce silver wines AND take a longer time to do so?

It would give us a reason to prioritize processing high quality fruit sooner? I don’t know if you can call that a benefit but it keeps my mind nice happy with the added complexity to worry about. I don’t want to be greedy, just get a little pat on my back for earning that excellent fruit tree.

P.S. I give the lowest value gifts possible whenever possible. My fruit tree wine! Mine!

 

[SuperChouette]

when it comes to cider, wines and whiskeys you can just cut off the bad portions and use the rest (or skip it who would know) and after the ferment the product would be identical as the prominent characteristic is the sugar content.

Fair point.

Her is the thing though about good and bad years. It's all bs. No sommelier can tell the difference. Sure a merlot vs a muscatto have different flavor profiles but those oak flavors and all other adjectives are pretty much made up on the spot or indoctrinated because that's what they were told.

Interesting digression… You are correct that a lot of wine culture is memorizing. You memorize which years had good weather for grapes (hot and dry summer) but it does make a difference in the flavor of the grape, processing and finished product. There is some evidence to suggest that the human tongue can’t taste many flavors at once but… who says you can’t taste different flavors at different times. It just needs to be studied better.

And it’s a million dollar industry so of course some people do lie about what they can taste to sell and purchase wine…

The simple addition of flavorless food coloring will change how they describe the wine if if tried back to back. So in the end it just matters that the grapes are in reasonable condition rather than champagne grapes from the champagne region of France as sparkling wine and champagne are the exact same if the ferment culture is the same.

Food coloring has flavor (red+blue makes me sick), they just minimize it. Water has flavor. All the ingredients in food color has a flavor that is different from wine. And yes you can also counterfeit wines based on what someone has memorized it should taste like. All of this makes it more amazing… I agree that you can make wines the same as in those regions of France but all wine-friendly soil is not created equal.

Take away: we all have our rant worthy passions but the truth of this issue is in the middle. Not A—the wine snobs who refuse to admit they can’t really taste the “leather”… Nor B—they made it all up, every single bit of it, even the agriculture…

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

@SuperChouette true but the thing is that modern wine is basically alchemy. With modern wine (and other spirits) they can compensate and often even exceed quality from good years. It's just paying for a vintage is more of a mind thing than flavor compared to most modern varieties.

But yeah comparing wines about 90s and up are very dependent on quality of the year

 

[Tom]

I think this is one of the more interesting ideas I have seen.

pass out to folks like they're Pez.

Points for saying "Pez". Demerits for arguing so much.

I suppose an alternative would be to get rid of the quality system entirely, and just have them produce more fruit instead. 25% chance for bonus fruit in year 1, 50% in year 2, 100% in year 3 and onwards.

I like this idea. After all, by the time you have iridium fruit, you aren't all that interested in finding the highest quality gifts, at least not from a crass self-serving perspective. I brainstormed a similar alternative.

• Every year, a tree holds on to its fruit one day longer (instead of having increased quality). This plays into the lazy habits of rich farmers. Imagine after 4 years checking your fruit trees only weekly.

 

[tornadojack]

When I produce Pickles / Jelly in the Preserves Jar, I see no difference in the result if I use normal or premium fruits. It's strange at least. Why premium fruits results in simple Jelly? IMO Jelly must have the same quality source fruits have. The same is for Pickles.

 

[Zen_the_Ogre]

I think the star rating should be rethought in general. For future games. That a now star is considered a base yield for the crop. Each rank higher is an increase in size or amount to iridium being a huge sized (not giant) that takes up a slot. Example would be a fridge melon (little bigger than a softball) would be a non star while would be a purple star melon. Then it would make sense to increase any artisan good amount produced from said item as the larger melon shown would definitely make 8 wine bottles compared to just increasing the value. This can be reasoned for some crops that normally are not harvested one at a time as well as blackberry harvest tend to be in the range of 50 per flush and not individual berries. Meaning that bigger flush sizes are higher scored hearts and the same goes for mushrooms.

Otherwise the games mentality of using crappy ingredients and selling higher ingredients is actually today's modern farming method. As the world's best potatoes are gonna make the same quality vodka as those smelly ones in the cargo containers.