2021 Stardew Valley Cup discussion [Update: Event concluded, replays are up]

Odin · Aug 23, 2021

If you haven't seen the announcement for this competition yet, please see ConcernedApe's post here!

This thread will serve as the place to discuss the competition on the forums!

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Update: With the event concluded, here are the recordings for everyone's perspective!

UnsurpassableZ's and ConcernedApe's Hosting VOD:

Zen_the_Ogre · Aug 23, 2021

So what's gonna be done to stop cheaters. You know modders, rng manipulation. Also are they limiting which version gets in?

Boo1972 · Aug 23, 2021

I think they all are playing with the same seed. I was wondering if they’ll have access to it ahead of time.

ConcernedApe · Aug 23, 2021

Boo1972 said:
I think they all are playing with the same seed. I was wondering if they’ll have access to it ahead of time.

Correct, everyone will be using the same seed, which will be revealed just before the tournament begins.

ShneekeyTheLost · Aug 23, 2021

Zen_the_Ogre said:
So what's gonna be done to stop cheaters. You know modders, rng manipulation. Also are they limiting which version gets in?

RNG manipulation requires knowing the seed ahead of time and working out the RNG manip points in advance. Without access to the seed, this is impossible.

Mods require SMAPI to run, and unless you are the host, aren't able to affect anything that would actually change the outcome. Besides, you've got many people watching, including those intimately familiar with modding such as PathosChild, creator of SMAPI, and others (such as myself, to be honest) who have hundreds of hours in modded Stardew. Pretty sure someone's gonna be able to twig to a mod being used pretty easily.

Furthermore, these are all well known people, they have their reputations on the line. Being caught out cheating on something like this is going to wreck their primary source of income as no one will watch their streams anymore.

Your concerns are... unfounded.

Boo1972 · Aug 23, 2021

I’m actually looking forward to it! I’ll just have to survive the merciless teasing from my family. Maybe I can get my youngest to watch too.

I can’t decide which team to root for. Fuzzireno looks a little like my oldest daughter so maybe Sandie’s Candies. But I can’t forget about Blade. I’ll have to see how it plays out.

BlaDe · Aug 23, 2021

Lots and lots of brainstorming going on over the next couple of weeks! Going to be a lot of fun!

Zen_the_Ogre · Aug 23, 2021

@ShneekeyTheLost
Dream

People try crappy tactics all the time. Without reviewing there logs mid play someone could do minor changes to the files to give them an upper hand by increasing base energy or reducing energy bar cost or imposing their seed over the one dictated.

Especially with money involved. Heck you know how many people will cheat at church raffles to ensure certain people win.

Just because you deem my concerns unlikely doesn't mean they are unlikely

ShneekeyTheLost · Aug 23, 2021

Zen_the_Ogre said:
@ShneekeyTheLost
Dream

People try crappy tactics all the time. Without reviewing there logs mid play someone could do minor changes to the files to give them an upper hand by increasing base energy or reducing energy bar cost or imposing their seed over the one dictated.

You clearly don't know how the game works, because none of this is going to be remotely possible without being immediately apparent. You can't just 'do minor changes to the files'. What you're probably referring to was xnb-edits, which a) aren't nearly as trivial as you think (coming from one who did them before SMAPI and Content Patcher rendered them obsolete), b) extremely risky to implement without worrying about creating instabilities, and c) extremely easy to spot. Using a different seed is going to be *instantly* spotted as vendor items will simply be different. Anyone who manages to slip in an xnb edit is going to be caught in minutes, probably before the end of the first day, and instantly disqualified, much to their discredit, and ruination of their reputation and income.

You can't just do a base xnb edit to increase base energy or reducing energy bar cost, because those things aren't in the xnb files. You'd need SMAPI + creating your own custom mod (since one doesn't exist on Nexus that does specifically this) to try to pull that off. And it will still be immediately apparent to anyone who has ever actually played the game. We've parsed down to the digit exactly how much stamina one should have and how much stamina an action drains per action at every single level. If these numbers are even a bit off, it's going to be blatantly obvious.

Especially with money involved. Heck you know how many people will cheat at church raffles to ensure certain people win.

People cheating at church raffles aren't putting their jobs at risk. The people involved in this competition literally make money doing twitch content, this is their livelihood. Getting caught cheating at something like this will absolutely destroy them. There's already money involved. The 40k on offer here is icing on the cake compared to their annual take from streaming.

Just because you deem my concerns unlikely doesn't mean they are unlikely

The odds that any of them can actually get away with it is zero, because there will be people watching who will be able to spot it immediately. Like, the first time someone goes to buy salads for stamina regen, there's random items at the bottom of Gus's inventory. If they're different, it's a different seed, and immediately called out. Same with Cart Vendor, although that won't be apparent until the end of the first week. Either way, you're looking at getting caught within a half hour or so, max.

You can worry about 'cheating' all you like. Those of us actually familiar with how the game works, however, aren't that worried. If anyone does, they'll get called out in minutes, but I very seriously doubt anyone will, simply because these people are in fact very familiar with the game and *know* they'll just get caught if they try anything funny. It's one thing to cheat at a church raffle. It's another thing when you know your every action is televised to a community of raffle experts and you will get fired from your job if you get caught.

Zen_the_Ogre · Aug 23, 2021

Whoa whoa don't get personal. Dude it's just a game and this account wasn't created to be hypothetical about cheaters. Be kind and show the spirit of the valley than trying to discredit people for their opinions and concerns

Lauren1593 · Aug 23, 2021

Kind of wish CA got DangerouslyFunny and sone other similarly evil people in on it. Preferably on the team called Morris’s Bat Wings.

ShneekeyTheLost · Aug 23, 2021

Zen_the_Ogre said:
Whoa whoa don't get personal. Dude it's just a game and this account wasn't created to be hypothetical about cheaters. Be kind and show the spirit of the valley than trying to discredit people for their opinions and concerns

Okay, that's fair. I went too far on that, mea culpa.

But seriously, everyone in the community is going to be watching their streams. It won't be easy to pull any funny business, because any of the numbers you'd care about aren't in the xnb files so you'd basically need to write your own SMAPI mod to change them in any meaningful way, without community support, before the beginning of the match. Which is probably as monumental an achievement as actually winning legitimately. You'd also have to pass said mod to your teammates. You'd then have to load the game in a modded state without it being immediately apparent, which is also easier said than done. And with so many knowledgeable eyes watching, there's zero chance they'd be able to get away with it even if they tried.

Given that these runners gain a non-trivial portion of their total income from their streaming profession, which they would lose if they got caught cheating, the odds of anyone actually cheating are... extremely remote. There's just no motivation here, and too much on the line to risk it.

Instead of assuming the worst of people, perhaps you could look up these individuals, maybe catch some of their streams and see for yourself what kind of persons are involved in the match? Then maybe make a decision based on an informed position of knowing the runners. Your basic assumption of these individuals cheating... came off as extraordinarily insulting. However, that does not in any way excuse my hostile tone in response, for which I do sincerely apologize.

Zen_the_Ogre · Aug 24, 2021

Actually two of the streamers are ones I expect to cheat. However I mean saying legit streamers don't cheat is hardly anything concrete. That's like saying Logan Paul would risk his channel doing something stupid. If I am going to invest any time watching this I wanna know if it's legit. It's like saying I wanna watch a UFC bout instead of WWE.

Knowing there is a safeguard in place isn't accusing them of cheating. It's just part of the idiom good fences make for better neighbors.

Lew Zealand · Aug 24, 2021

Lauren1593 said:
Kind of wish CA got DangerouslyFunny and sone other similarly evil people in on it. Preferably on the team called Morris’s Bat Wings.

I was actually not all that interested in the idea of watching someone speedrunning SDV.

Seriously. Speedrunning? The only way I could condone such aberrant behavior would be to speedrun to a nice shady tree and pant there from overexertion for a few hours.

But adding DF to a speedrun game as a kind of RNG boss is genius. Like he needs to be defeated after the CC is done in order to complete the speedrun.

I love this!

BlaDe · Aug 24, 2021

There is a lot of discussion going on with the organisers as to what is allowed and what isn't.

I'm intending to fully follow the rules, I would very disappointed if my fellow competitors don't.

ShneekeyTheLost · Aug 24, 2021

Zen_the_Ogre said:
Actually two of the streamers are ones I expect to cheat. However I mean saying legit streamers don't cheat is hardly anything concrete. That's like saying Logan Paul would risk his channel doing something stupid. If I am going to invest any time watching this I wanna know if it's legit. It's like saying I wanna watch a UFC bout instead of WWE.

Knowing there is a safeguard in place isn't accusing them of cheating. It's just part of the idiom good fences make for better neighbors.

... what a jaded and cynical world view.

I've already explained, as someone who has done XNB editing back in the day before CP made it obsolete, who has mods up on Nexus, and as someone who has hundreds of hours in actually playing modded SDV, why it isn't as easy as you seem to think it is to pull this off. I've already explained that the audience is familiar with the game, which makes it a far cry from the scripted drama that is WWE or the cagematch bloodsport that is UFC. The audience itself is going to immediately spot any cheating going on, because the audience isn't simply drunk rednecks cheering on what looks cool... the audience are also players who are extremely familiar with the game being played, and familiar with what is possible and not possible. If someone does something that isn't possible, it will become immediately apparent to the audience.

You clearly have your opinions, and you are welcome to them. But the odds of anyone trying to pull anything funny under the watchful gaze of thousands of SDV players, including the creator of the game, is... shall we say 'exceedingly remote'. The odds they will get away with anything is too insignificant to meaningfully calculate to twenty significant digits. Believe it or not, I really don't care at this point.

Watch it or not, that's up to you. I'll be there, so will most of the rest of the community. The rest will catch it on the VODs. No one is forcing you to 'waste your time' watching entertainment. If you don't think you'd find it enjoyable, go do something else instead of stressing over improbabilities.

Zen_the_Ogre · Aug 24, 2021

Ok. @ShneekeyTheLost can you please move on you've been modded once but keep doubling down the hostility. I mean is this the attitude you wanna generate for the competition. Please you have said your peace can you please find a new target. Alienating people is never cool.

CryogenCrystals · Aug 24, 2021

This isn't the competition, I think cool heads can indeed prevail.

ShneekeyTheLost said:
... what a jaded and cynical world view.

I've already explained, as someone who has done XNB editing back in the day before CP made it obsolete, who has mods up on Nexus, and as someone who has hundreds of hours in actually playing modded SDV, why it isn't as easy as you seem to think it is to pull this off. I've already explained that the audience is familiar with the game, which makes it a far cry from the scripted drama that is WWE or the cagematch bloodsport that is UFC. The audience itself is going to immediately spot any cheating going on, because the audience isn't simply drunk rednecks cheering on what looks cool... the audience are also players who are extremely familiar with the game being played, and familiar with what is possible and not possible. If someone does something that isn't possible, it will become immediately apparent to the audience.

You clearly have your opinions, and you are welcome to them. But the odds of anyone trying to pull anything funny under the watchful gaze of thousands of SDV players, including the creator of the game, is... shall we say 'exceedingly remote'. The odds they will get away with anything is too insignificant to meaningfully calculate to twenty significant digits. Believe it or not, I really don't care at this point.

Watch it or not, that's up to you. I'll be there, so will most of the rest of the community. The rest will catch it on the VODs. No one is forcing you to 'waste your time' watching entertainment. If you don't think you'd find it enjoyable, go do something else instead of stressing over improbabilities.

Not everyone is an expert (in my opinion that should be okay/safe and welcomed here). Concerns of fairness are present in any kind of competition, and are likely to get voiced in discussion about any competition. Passion behind this stuff can sometimes run away with us, and that's understandable, though ideally it would be nice to refrain from aiming it at individuals.

I do think the competition is an interesting idea. I'm with Lew though, I'm not a watcher of speedrun stuff. It's still a neat idea for the community though.

Boo1972 · Sep 3, 2021

I just wanted to say good luck to @BlaDe and anyone else on the forums competing tomorrow! I’ll be munching on pepper poppers and cheering you all on!

Magically Clueless · Sep 4, 2021

The competition has ended! What did everyone think?

(will share links to vids/vods when they become available)

2021 Stardew Valley Cup discussion [Update: Event concluded, replays are up]

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